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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello fellow Lee-Enfield enthusiasts! Been lurking around the forums for years but now have two questions I have been unable to answer elsewhere which have prompted me to finally become a member of this august body. Neither question involves Lee-Enfields, but as there is no Pedersen or P14 forum, thought this would be the most likely place to find someone whose interest in British rifles extends to these models.
First question involves the Pedersen Self-Loader. In the nine years I've owned it, I have always been amazed at the dearth of information available on this rare bird. There are snippets of information in lots of books, but no real detail on production dates, precise production figures, or take-down procedures. The most information I have found so far is in Billy Pyle's, "Gas Trap Garand". Does anyone out there have a copy of the, "HANDBOOK OF THE PEDERSEN SELF-LOADING RIFLE MODEL PA", printed by Vickers-Armstrong in the late 20's or early 30's, or any more detailed info than that found in Pyle's book?
My other question is simpler, but probably just as tough. Does anyone know where I can find the fine adjustment rear sight for the P14 so I can complete my Australian-issue, P14 sniper? Several months ago, a forum member posted that after a search through thousands of P14 rear sights, he had found 14 of them. Does that person still have one he might be willing to sell?
Thanks for reading this long-winded post and any help you may be able to provide.
 

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Vickers-produced Rifles.

The Only rifles actually produced by Vickers ltd., of crayford in Kent, were the Semi Automatic Pedersen rifles (on licence) for the 1930-31 British Semi-Automatic Rifle trials.

Detailed information was Published in the British Technical Journal "The Mechanical Engineer" sometime in 1930/31. I remember reading a copy in the Uni. of Queensland Engineering Library, back in 1970 or so, when it still had all the Bound volumes going back to the 1880s (Now long gone, either confined to "Stack" or Pulped....a sad Loss.) In those days (the 20s and 30s,) articles on Gun manufacture held the same appeal as Engine Building, or other forms of mechanical engineering.

Numbers built. The figiures usually given are 200 examples for limited field trials, along with
ammunition supplied by Kynoch ("K 30").

Fate of the rifles. After the trials came to nothing (no rifles were considered "suitable" from a selection of the Pedersen, the Czech ZH 29 and 31, the Swiss KE 7 and several other European designs) , the Vickers rifles were returned to the factory and stored, along with remaining Kynoch ammo.
During WW II, the rifles were issued to the Vickers Home Guiard unit and to the factory Security staff. At war's end, they were eventually "auctioned off" sometime in the 50s to 70s. They only began to surface as individual, collectible auction pieces in the 1980s
(Wellers and Dufty, and several other "Gun auctioneers") Examples are spread around the world.


As to the "fine adjustment sight" for the P14. This was an item limited to Winchester made P14s, found to be the most consistently accurate of the three P14 makers (WRA and two Remington factories).

A "Correct" P14 Mark I*(F)(T) or Rifle No3.Mark I*(F) (T), will be a WRA marked receiver, with matching WRA Barrel and stock, fitted with a Fine Adjustment rear sight, and also custom machined to fit the Claw mounts typical of the Late WWI, early WW II sniper rifle.

WW I snipers will have one of the many Aldis brand telecopic sights, and the Definitive model (set up late 1918 and in WW II,) will have the Pattern 1918 telecopic sight (BY Aldis, in WW I and by AOC (Australian Optical Company) in WW II for Australian-set-up P14 sniper equipments.
Australian Commando snipers (North Africa, Pacific) generally were issued with the AOC scope and set up during all of WW II.
Lithgow only began selecting SMLE WW I receivers (1915-1917 dates) for rebuilding into Mark III*HT in 1944-45...their major use was in Korea and early Vietnam.

Many P14s assembled with Aldis scopes in WW I were subsequently "dismantled" by the trade in the 1920s in Britain...the same happened in Australia after WW II, when P14s were surplussed...NRAA Range rifles were not allowed to have "scope" sights.

Occasionally one comes across one of these "Dismantled" P14s, evidenced by the Milled surfaces where the bases were siver soldered and screwed in place on the receiver rings ( the bases were a modification of the bases used on the SMLE, and could use the same Claw rings. The entire set up of bases and rings were a front centred and rear offset, the same as the German Gew98 Bases and rings, with similar locking systems.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.
Brisbane...Aust.
 

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P14(F) sights and Pedersen handbook available

It was me that found all the Fine Adjustment sights - only have one left and would only want to trade it towards something equally as rare in the sniping line. I had an original of the HANDBOOK OF THE PEDERSEN SELF-LOADING RIFLE MODEL PA but sold it. However, I did take a photocopy of it which is available.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
It was me that found all the Fine Adjustment sights - only have one left and would only want to trade it towards something equally as rare in the sniping line. I had an original of the HANDBOOK OF THE PEDERSEN SELF-LOADING RIFLE MODEL PA but sold it. However, I did take a photocopy of it which is available.
Longrange sniper, Please e-mail me off forum as I may have a trade item you may be interested in,, and, I am obviously interested in a copy of the Pedersen handbook.

Thanks much
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Vickers produced rifles

Hello Doc AV,

Thanks for taking the time to provide all that information in your post. As far as the Pederson is concerned, unfortunately, most of what you said I had already gathered up over the years from various texts, but it is very enlightening to those that are not familiar with these rather interesting rifles.

While going over paragraphs on the Pedersen in assorted books in my library that I had book marked, I found something I had forgotten about, and in so doing, managed to answer one of my own questions. One of my book marks was a copy of an ad from a reference collection of ads from American Rifleman magazine, dating from July 1958-December 1959.

The ad was from the San Francisco Gun Exchange and they were offering for sale, Pedersen rifles and carbines. The ad says they are proof fired only and in like new condition. It also says, "These few are the only ones in the world ever to be offered for sale." Advertising hyperbole perhaps, but they go on to list serial numbers which tends to bear this out. They list for sale, rifle serial numbers 17 to 208 and carbine serial numbers 240 to 262. This certainly confirms the oft quoted, "about 200" figure for the rifles. The ad copy was headlined, "ADVANCED MILITARY COLLECTORS", because of the outrageously high price for these arms, (for the 1950's).... $250 for the rifle, $300 for the carbine, or both for $500!

I bought this rifle from Red Star Military Museum, (now out of business), in Culver City, CA., which was directly across the street from a much more famous firearms store, Martin B, Retting. The son of the store's founder and namesake heard that there was a Pederson in Red Star and walked across the street to look at it. Turns out that old Martin B. himself had bought the last of the Pedersons that Vickers had kept for their museum. I forget the exact number he told me, but I do remember it was in the teens, which would probably be most of those in the 1 to 16 serial number range that the San Francisco Gun Exchange did not get initially. Without knowing where the carbine serial numbers began, it can't be known for sure, but it would appear that almost all of the Pedersen rifles first arrived in California and were dispersed from there.

Thanks again Doc.
 

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.276 Pederson

These are the rounds used in the British Pederson trials, l. to r.

F A 29
K.29 .276 (unprimed empty)
K30 .276
K31 .276
K31 .276 Proof, purple stripe on head, bullet seated less deep to accommodate extra prop.
B30 0.276 Believed to be poor bunter for Greenwood & Batley.

There is also some further information and photographs in Hatcher's "Book of the Garand"

Regards
TonyE
 

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Dunno if this counts as a rifle "produced", but Vickers also turned out No 1 Mk IVs (conversion of Long Lees to No 1 Mk III configuration). The one I have has a Vickers barrel on it...
 

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Vickers made barrels

Vickers only supplied barrels, they didn't do the conversions themselves. I have even (this very morning) sighted an Italian DB Shotgun with "Vickers" marked barrels...Vickers made a lot of things besides MGs...but also for other makers/factories, etc.

regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics
 

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Vickers Pederson

These Vickers Pederson rifles turn up in a number of museums that have collections of British military small arms. There is an example in the Small Arms Museum in Lithgow, S/N 14 from memory.I have been told that the Royal Naval Museum -Explotion! at Priddy's Hard has a rack full of them in a storage area. How they ended up there is anyones guess.I hope to examine them on my next visit to the UK. It will be interesting to see what the range of serial numbers is.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney
 

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Vickers No 1 Mk IV

Doc AV...

My No 1 Mk IV has Vickers marking on both the barrel and the buttstock. The buttstock marking is quite large and prominent. I don't recall the exact layout, but it includes "Crayford". I suppose that could be a "property mark" but it looks like part of the total rework to me...
 

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Hello fellow Lee-Enfield enthusiasts! Been lurking around the forums for years but now have two questions I have been unable to answer elsewhere which have prompted me to finally become a member of this august body. Neither question involves Lee-Enfields, but as there is no Pedersen or P14 forum, thought this would be the most likely place to find someone whose interest in British rifles extends to these models.
With thanks to Advisory Panel member Terry Hawker, we've added a new entry to the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12, complete with a very detailed photo montage:

Pedersen "Selfloader" Rifle (Click Here)http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=3521
(Mfg by Vickers-Armstrongs Ltd., Crayford, Kent, England)

This is one of only about 200 rifles and carbines manufactured by Vickers. Terry's article is excellent and it's a very interesting rifle to study the pics and see how it operates. As you can see from the pic below, Terry comments that the "Luger-like toggle-lock mechanism in open position illustrates the possibility of the shooter's helmet taking a beating."

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

One of these just sold at the James D. Julia Auctionhttp://www.milsurps.com/showpost.php?p=12339&postcount=25 in March 2008 for $13,800 U.S.

We're not sure how many of these rifles exist and are in the hands of visitors to this site, however, if there are any others and you'd like to help build on the accuracy and content of this library entry, then please email us at [email protected].

Regards,
Badger

ps: If you get a message that you're not authorized, then you're either not logged in or not registered. If we don't have people register with legitimate email addresses, we get plastered with posts from spammers selling on-line prescription drugs and advertising *********** sites. Registration is FREE..... :)
 

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The Only rifles actually produced by Vickers ltd., of crayford in Kent, were the Semi Automatic Pedersen rifles (on licence) for the 1930-31 British Semi-Automatic Rifle trials.
Other than the Vickers small bore target rifles?
 

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VSM also made the Charger Loading Conversions per Skennerton and socket markings on the ones I have.

For what it is worth, I have a Pattern 1914 Fine Tune Rear Sight with Remington markings. It may have been a replacement on a Winchester rifle that was later set up as a fine tune (F). I posted a picture of it some time ago when someone in insisted that it was done commercially. It matches my other ones and doesn't eat any more or less than the other ones.
 

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Vickers also made...

target sights for the LE and CLLE rifles, in the form of windage/elevation screw adjustable leaf sights. They were marked Made by VSM and the design was done in conjunction with John Peddie. They are sometimes callled the Peddie sight.
 

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P14(f) sights

I was always under the impression that the P14)t)'s were stripped of their fine rear sights when the telescope was fitted.

Makes sense, no point having the fine adjust sight sitting there hardly used when it could be fitted to another rifle which then gives one more marksman rifle... Would be handy at a time when every sniper's rifle was put to use!

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Aussie's set up several Remington rifles with the P14(t) mounts but no scopes, and several other P14(f) of ERA and Remington versions during the years prior to WWII.

My P14(T) has a standard rear sight in which the aparture has been bushed down with brazing metal. Interesting fix, but I have also seen two different dimensions of apartures on the P14 Winchester rear sights, not including the (f) version.
 

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I was always under the impression that the P14)t)'s were stripped of their fine rear sights when the telescope was fitted.

Yes and no ... :)

At conversion, long range aperture sights were removed with dial side plate left in fore-end. If the conversion wasn't done from a No.3 MkI* (F) Rifle, which already had a fine adjustable (1 moa) click adjustment rear sight, then besides the scope, that special micrometer rear sight was added, which resulted in a No.3 MkI* (T) Rifle.

However, if you're talking about the Alexander Martin conversion, No.3 MkI* (T)A Sniper Rifle (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=3472, yes the rear sight was removed in favor of a very cheap "battle sight", which was necessary because the scope had to be mounted so low.

Extracted from "England - Milsurp Knowledge Library"http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

No.3 MkI* (T) Rifle (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=1945
(Manufactured by Winchester)


c/w Model 1918 (3x) Scope (Mfg by Periscopic Prism Co. Ltd.)
c/w 1908 Web Pattern sling (Mfg in 1913 by M.E. Co.)


(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Battle Sight on No.3 MkI* (T)A Sniper Rifle

(Click PIC to Enlarge)[

Regards,
Badger

ps: If you aren't a member you have to join, however, you can register for FREE..... Sorry, but if we don't have people register with legitimate email addresses, we get plastered with posts from spammers selling on-line prescription drugs and advertising *********** sites.
 
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