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Discussion Starter #1
Are returked m38 configuration gew 88's with no original date but just a rebuilt date in the 30's or 40's considered antique status and no ffl or transfer required, or do they require a c&r ffl now that there is no original date?
 

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The last M88 receiver was made before 1898, so they are considered antiques. The BATF sent out a letter saying all the Turk 93's were considered antiques whether or not the original date was still on the side. The Turked M88 I just picked up was dated 1940 with no other original markings and it sold as an antique.
 

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Antique status goes by the receiver manufacture date. If its got a pre 1899 receiver or frame its an antique regardless of mods or rebuilds or barrel date.

C&R milsurps, however, (all bolt action military rifles are C&R, regardless of age) have to generally be in military configuration*, so after sporterizing one it loses its C&R status until, I guess, the conversion reaches C&R status in the magic 50 years. No guidance on THAT from BATFE, but there are plenty of old Springfield and GEW 98 sporters that everyone accepts as C&R.

*Most military arms are regularly rebuilt, repaired and modified but that is still considered original military configuration. The BATFE didn't reply to my letters asking how many parts could be missing without affecting C&R status so you can assume missing parts have no effect until they say otherwise.
 

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The last M88 receiver was made before 1898, so they are considered antiques. The BATF sent out a letter saying all the Turk 93's were considered antiques whether or not the original date was still on the side. The Turked M88 I just picked up was dated 1940 with no other original markings and it sold as an antique.
I would like to see a copy of that letter about all 1893 Turks being Antiques. Only one I have seen says that the original script marked prior to 1899 are antiques.
 

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are you the guy that emailed me about a m93 turk im selling that tried to tell me its not antique anymore because it was refurbed?

also not all bolt action rifles are C&R ,case in point T53 mosin,think it has to do with it being chinese
 

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are you the guy that emailed me about a m93 turk im selling that tried to tell me its not antique anymore because it was refurbed?

also not all bolt action rifles are C&R ,case in point T53 mosin,think it has to do with it being chinese

Not me.
 

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Here's one for 1893 Turks...

Here's one for 1893 Turks...
Don't have a copy of one for 1888 Commission rifles, though.








 

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That is an excellent letter from BATF which states that reworked turk M93's are still antique if the receiver was made prior to 1899. Here is another BATF letter which address the Turkish Date makings. In the lengthly Thread addressing the Contract Date issue for Model 93's(Was in the now Deleted Archives from old Board) there was a discussion about an "Expert" that stated in his Book that the Turk Mauser Contract extended into 1899. I have read that no original script marked Turk M93's have been seen with an 1899 date.
 

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Only one I have seen says that the original script marked prior to 1899 are antiques.
I believe I have the same letter and it does not say that the script is necessary. (in fact the script date still exists on the rifle but is not visible to the naked eye) With bureaucratic skill (I was one) it restates the regulation, says the particular rifle with script is an antique, gives a list of the dates in the perso-arabic numerals, and says that removing the date is legal but nothing about how you go about proving the date, or if any 1893s were NOT antique. But the list extends only to 1897! There is, therefore, no way you can put the letter writer on the spot for ANYTHING that isn't in the rule book.

I have never seen nor heard of a Turk 1893 with a later date. If you wish you may bring up the original date with strong hydrochloric acid, or, preferably, an acid gel used by forensic firearms investigators for that purpose. I tried the first and it was a mess - fumes, needed a clay dam, had to stop since I didn't want to wreck my lungs. The forensic gel is expensive and IMHO not worth it since the dates, as explained below, seem firm.

The following is a post by John Wall that I saved. It gives the source of the exact date of the final 1893 mauser shipment to Turkey. The difference between the 1896 date and the latest 1897 date in the ATF letter is due to overlap of the islamic lunar and gregorian solar calendars. September 21 is 13 Rabi II, year 1314 Hijra, the 4th month of the islamic year 1314, which ran to May 1897.

"Brian,
The 200,000 M1893 rifles eventually grew to 201,900 rifles. All were shipped to Turkey by 21 September 1896. The source is Part 5 of Wolfgang Seel's series of articles on the Turkish Mauser entitled "Turken-Mauser: Mauser-Gewehre unter dem Halmond", page 1423, in Deutsche Waffen-Journal, 1981. The text is in German, but it is easy to translate.
Regards,
John"

Edited by - John Wall on 10/01/2006 7:18:19 PM

Therefore all 1893 Turks are antiques.

In fact the 1887 contract between Mauser and Turkey had a clause to switch production to the latest technology and if Turkey had continued to acquire mausers in 1898 or later they could have demanded the 1898 configuration. This did not happen until 1903 with a new contract.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Sooo..... what we are saying here is even if my rifle or one just like it has no original date but just a 30's or 40's rebuild date I should have to use or have not had to use an ffl to buy one or get one off the internet, or if I was crazy sell it to someone on the internet and they not need to go through an ffl, or the like, SINCE it and all 88 receivers are antique.
All I can think about is the lame conversation I had with my gun dealer last month where I said I didn't have have waited a whole three days since the in state background check system was out of order since it was antique status, the guy bout come unglued like I was trying something.
 

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bottom line is a 88 is antique,but the seller is the seller and if he decides he wants a ffl that is his right,as is yours not to purchase it because of his ignorance,if you dont have a C&R it tacks on around $20 bucks and in this case is a added hassle, and expense which isnt necessary
 
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