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Hey fellas-
Just trying to learn a little bit more about these (and the N.E.W.) rifles. It seems like many of these came in via Finland or the Balkans/Bulgaria, or Romania (for the 'Instructie' examples). Of the non-import marked and non-captured specimens you've seen, have most/some/any been matching and consisting mostly of Remington-marked parts?

Obviously, those rare examples which never left the U.S. and stayed away from Bubba are invariably stunning and command a premium price. I'm a little more interested in the non-Finned Remingtons for this purpose, and am curious about how many are seen still bearing their matching parts. Are their any rifles floating around the collectors' markets that came from countries other than Russia and the countries listed above? Did Remington ever conduct any refurbishment of rifles that remained stateside or came back from overseas? I think I recall hearing that the American force sent to aid the Whites in Russia left their rifles behind. Any merit to this?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge-
Poot
 

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Most came by way of Finland because the American made rifles were delivered to the port city called Archangelsk located on the shore of White Sea. Finland happened to be a few hundred miles away...

No, Remington did not rebuilt any of mosins they made. The opposite is more true. Once Russians stopped paying for the rifles, Remington could not get rid of them fast enough.

There was a small US Navy force that was sent to Archangelsk. From the sailors manning those ships a small detachment was formed for shore duties (guarding the warehouses for example). These sailors were armed with mosins (probably borrowed from the warehouses that they were guarding) and when the ships left, the sailors left the rifles ashore.

The other American force was operating along Russian portion of Trans-Siberian Rail Road, this force was made up of units of US Army and were armed with the Army standard arms (Springfield M1903/06).



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Thanks for the information on the American expedition, IJ70. Nice to have some context for these rifles.

Hey Ted, are you aware of any Remington examples that stayed stateside, but are not matching, for whatever reason? Thanks-
Poot
 

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I have two Remingtons that have no serial numbers whatsoever. One has a bolt that is all NEW marked parts, again no serial numbers. That would be consideredd non matching, but none that stayed in the US would have any foreign made parts.
The US govt bailed the two manufacturers out to the tune of $30 each and later surplussed them out for $3 each (Lapins book I believe, I dont have it here)
Many were incomplete (why bother with no one paying for them) and were made into drill rifles, and probably used by kids a long time ago playing guns. Remember the numbers left over were in the hundreds of thousands.
This was also the era of no AC or central heat, so it will be a rare example that survived until today in pristine condition.
The Remingtion examples have serial numbers on the normal places as well as the back of the cocking piece. This is not unique to the Remington I have seen it (and have an example) of an early Izheveck bolt that has the serial on the knob.
Westinghouse versions do not have serial numbers on the bolt knob, and the ones that I have seen do not have serials on the mag floorplate.
I have seen both NEW and Remington examples on numerous occasions, over the last 4 years. Only two months ago a friend bought a Remington for $100 ffrom a walk in at a show and sold it later for $2K. It was a pristine example and the purchaser was happy to get it, based on his response.
The survivors that have no suffered the ravages of time are the finest examples of M91s you will probably ever find. Ammunition was not easy to obtain so they saw little or no use, and the ones I have seen usually have pristine bores.

regards
badger
 

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I wonder....If there was a huge surplus of N.E.W. and Remington M91's left back here in the U.S. - Many that were sold off I read were converted into sporters, many turned into drill rifles....I wonder if thousands of like new American made MN's are still sitting in corners/closets of folks houses & the few that show up are from consignment/estate sales....
From the production records, one would think that you could find them at every show you attended....

I agree with Badger, when you find a really great example of a N.E.W., the quality shows for sure. I have yet to buy a pristine Remington M91, but I am on the prowl...LOL...

Pahtu.
 

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I have owned 2 Remingtons that I suspect came from Spain. They did not have import marks, but the barreled receivers were practically the only parts made by Remington. The crests were not scrubbed. They did not have any of the typical Spanish features, but they also showed no evidence of ever having been in Finland. I think Spain is the likely source for some Remington and NEW's currently in this country.
 

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Thanks for the information on the American expedition, IJ70. Nice to have some context for these rifles.

Hey Ted, are you aware of any Remington examples that stayed stateside, but are not matching, for whatever reason? Thanks-
Poot
Not that I'm aware of, but I haven't been paying attention to that either. Several with no serial numbers have been reported here.

7.62x54r was loaded commercially in the US during the '20s specifically for these rifles. I don't know what the amount of production was or how prices compared, but it was available.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for the feedback, guys.

Badger, thanks for the very informative and (for me, at least) fascinating history of the two American manufacturers. I never considered the problem of uncompleted rifles left around after the cancellation of the contract, and all of the possibilities that could result. It certainly makes complete sense to me that uncompleted N.E.W.s and Remingtons might later be assembled and completed with spare, unserialed parts laying around/surplused to the general public. I need to dig out my (outdated) copy of Lapin's book and read up on these.
Thanks again-
Poot
 

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I am not sure if I would credit the rifles in Finland to the US ventures in the area. Estonia got 60,000 US made rifles from the Brits and they later traded these to Poland who in turn sold them to Finland. I think that is the main source not so much the US use.

The rifles that stayed in the US went to a number of outlets - Including military schools and I know of one marked as the property of a US railroad. So they are out there but as they saw use as trainers condition can and will vary. I think they are interesting but the real high dollar examples are those with US proof markings.
 

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Thanks Tuco, I wasn't aware that we even sold to the Brits.

Did the Poles ever mark the M91s while they had them, and before selling those to the Finns?
Poot
 

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Tuco, what would U.S. proof markings look like and where would they be? I am also trying to piece together the story of my remington, maybe one of the uncompleted 1918's yall mentioned, as everything is pristine and not import marked but a mismatched bolt and mag housing, which is confusing
 

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Here's the bolt in one of my Finnish B barrel 91's. As you can see, it's a N.E.W. that is stamped with the US Army ordnance flaming bomb. The bolt has been re-numbered by the Finns to match. I've always wondered if this bolt was from a rifle carried by a member of the US expeditionary force. Anyway, thought it was kind of neat.

 

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thanks guys, I have the eagles on the receiver and barrel and a possible very faint flaming bomb, but it's on the butt stock.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Mosin Junkie-
GREAT link, thanks!
Mike O-
Very cool bolt mark, thanks for sharing. I'm paying for a sort of 'mystery' Remington M91 tomorrow so I'll report back when it comes in. The purchase of this (on an on-line auction) led me to wonder about alot of these questions.
Best,
Poot
 

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Here is what the flaming bomb would look like on the stock...Plus the cartouche(sp) on the left side of the stock of a N.E.W. M91!

Pahtu.
 
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