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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a sporterized 67/89 Husqvarna made Rolling Block Rifle converted to a sporterized carbine in the 1950ies by shortening the barrel and handguard. The rifle is in general in very good condition.

Kaliber is "supposedly" 8X58RD. A full 7.62X53R round goes in but I have not shot any.

Question 1: Could I use 7.62X53R Lapua or Sako brass case rounds loaded with 123 grain FMJ to blow the brass to proper dimensions or would it be a disaster because of higher pressures ? Sounds risky to me and therefore I ask. These training loads are here cheap so fireforming with factory ammo does intrigue me :)

Sako makes excellent Boxer-primed 8.2X53R brass here in Finland. It fits in to the chamber and the neck of the brass goes halfway to the chamber neck. The body is a little thinner as it has otherwise than the neck the same gereal size than 7.62X53R and 7.62X54R.

CAREFUL ! 8.2X53R live ammo fits too. Pity it´s operating pressure is the same as with 7.62X54R which is probably way too high for Rolling Blocks.

Question 2: Is it safe to use this 8.2X53R brass and to "blow" it to chamber dimensions with fast pistol powder and oatmeal ? How much of Vihtavuori N310 should I use ? The end result would/should be "8X53.5RD" where the case would be otherwise similar to 8X58RD but the neck part would be apprx. 4-4.5mm shorter with this brass.

I could get Horneber made proper 8X58RD brass from Germany but it´s price is about double compared to Sako brass and delivery times is measured in weeks where I can get Sako brass immediately. I know Sako brass is of high quality but I have no first or second hand information on Horneber brass quality.

I can buy PPU 7.62X54R brass for 20% of the Sako price but I think this Sako brass is so close to the needed dimensions that I would like to skip some unneeded steps. If possible.

Question 3: I plan to test also round lead ball Gallery loads. Any experience with these ? Idea is to load VV N310 a proper amount and top it with a .323" lead ball and put some wax on top of the ball. These could be handloaded without a press.

Any insights and information would be helpfull !
 

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The cheapest brass for convertions to the 8X58R is the 7.62X54R Russian. It just a matter of expanding the neck to accept 8mm bullets in full lenght 8X58R resizer, and then reloading them with a mild loads from any 8X58R reloading data, for the first load. Then after you load them with full loads the second time.

Good luck :)
 

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Yes, using the 7.62x54R russians in the 8x58R chamber makes them a bit shorter, but it does not appears to have any ill effects what so ever, since the neck of the 7.62x54R is long enough for safe firing in a 8x58R chamber. Use only 7.62x54R brass cases, and not the steel cases.
 

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NOTE ALso!!! The 8x58R cases has the same Head diameter as a .45/70 cases( lclose to .500) and the 7,62x54R is only about .480-483....that's about .020 differance undersized.

I would use the 8,2x53R ( Finnish "Wildcat) or the 7,62R cases with a sleeve of K&S Brass Tubing (Illinois) ( .500 OD,.476???ID .012 Wall thickness. by about .500 long) This will give a good centralised fit, and the sleeve then gets Locked into place by the expanding Case Body. (Have used this system for making 8x52R Siamese from 7,62R Steel Cases).

The Other suggestion, use of 8x56R (Steyr) cases is better, as the Steyr case is already .490-.495 head diameter, and longer...I also make 8x52R Siamese from Military (Berdan) 8x56R M30 cases. No sleeve is required.

Alternately, if you have a lathe, a 45/70 case,or better, a .45/90 or .40/82 case makes an excellent 8x58R case. ( size, trim and turn rim down from .600 to about .560 or so.).

Having an unsupported 7,62R case can lead to body splits or head separations, especially with a RRB action. (uneven Bulging of case, or overstretching of whole case.)

M67/89 Swedes are too nice to mistreat with "Iffy" cases. ( even if "sporterized).

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.
 

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Have used both Russian 7,62X54R and Hung 8X56R brass as starters for 8X58RD. Both worked well for lighter loads with cast lead, gas check bullets. 7,62X54R cases have thinner brass in neck than 8X56R or 8X58RD, with can result in some minor problems with most cast lead bullets. Both have same potential problem in that rims are thinner than on 8X58RD. I avoided problem with this by forming cases to seat on shoulder, like any rimless case, rather than on rim. Only practical difference is that with cases resized to seat on rim, primers would back out small, consistant amount at any chamber pressures over about 20.000 psi.

I also bought some 8X58RD cases from Aussie case maker (Bertrum?) and found them to be so much too small at shoulder that splitting was too common. Some folks anneal shoulders and necks of these cases. 8X58RD cases fromed from 45-70 are sold by Buffalo Arms and have worked OK for initial shooting -- HOWEVER, nearly every case shows effects of being stretched to make them truly 58 mm -- NOT a comforting visual of potential case head separation!!

FYI, my 8X58RD roller has 0,07 rim diameter, same as 45-90 and 45-70. These cases have top of case heads flush with back of barrel-chamber.

So far, with all cast bullets, only loads giving over 1300 fps (usually 1350-1450 fps, or more) give nice, small, round groups, with no evidence of any bullets tumbling.

Niklas
 

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Thanks for the informations in regards to using the Hungarian 8x56R cases. I have always wondered if those cases would work in the danish krag.

I had the same bad experience with these expensive, australian "Bertram" cases, which has an tendency to split after one firing. Annealing improves them a bit.

I never had any problem with full power loads when using the 7.62x54R russian cases in my danish krag.

However, I did have problems reforming and reloading the Winchester 45-70 brass, originally formed and converted by a private reloader in the eastern US for the danish krag. There was not enough metal around the neck of those reformed cases for my full length resizer, to form a firm fit for the 8 mm bullets. RCBS told me to return this full length resizer back to them for an adjustment, which is still on my "to do list" :)
 

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Never tried reformed Russian 7,62X54R cases with full-power 8X58RD loads. Initially for full-power loads, I used Bertrum 8X58R and then exclusively reformed 8X56R Hungarian cases, until I bought some reformed 45-70 cases from Buffalo Arms. I am not sure there is much difference, if any, in performance between 8X58RD Bertrum cases, ones formed from 45-70 (as Buffalo Arms does it, without thinning rims) and reformed 8X56R Hungarian brass, SO LONG as rim thickness is correct for your rifle OR brass is reformed to seat properly on shoulder.

Recently, I have switched to IMR4350 for "full-power" loads using 195 grain cast, gas-checked bullets in Buffalo Arms reformed 45-70 brass with unthinned rims. Not enough test shooting done yet to say more than that all appears well. Unfortunately, seems likely I will not be able to do more test shooting until late July 2010, at earliest.

Niklas
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for everybody´s input. By accident I managed to get a totally new approach to the 8X58DK brass question of which I have neverr before heard or read anything.

A bulletsmith delivering me cast bullets asked what I was using the 8.25mm/.325" bullets for. When I told him that I would be loading 8X58DK he bluntly asked "Do you need brass for it ? I can deliver." I was somewhat suprprised and asked for the price. Price was the same as for virgin Lapua 7.62X53R brass (or 50% less than what Sako 8.2X53R costs) so I ordered a hundred pieces. He told me he makes them from straight brass.

The starting case is something called Sako 12.4X55R and the boxes are Sako boxes with that caliber marking on them. The brass has Sako stamped on it but no caliber markings whatsoever. In laymans terms they are straight "53R Basic" brass in similar fashion like the 45 Basic brass. My bulletsmith used his dies and delivered me 100 pcs of Sako made brand new brass cases that have correct shoulder measurements for 8X58DK. The end result is around 54.7mm long so the neck is shorter than the proper 58mm but for lead bullet reloads no problem. It is longer than actual 7.62X53R brass which measures 53.4mm.

In comparison I fireformed some 8.2X53R brass with toiletpaper&oatmeal, 15 greins of VV N340 and Fed 215 primer. The load was a little mild but even now the brass measures only 52.95mm. I believe the chamber might on the bigger side as the brass mouth OD is now 9.34-9.39mm.

With the Sako "53R Basic" -way I got from my gunsmith almost ready-to-load 8X58DK brass without any forming for the same cost than virgin Lapua 7.62X53R brass would have cost me. This brass does have all the normal issues which all 53R and 54R brass has for this purpose: The body is a little thinner than 8X58DK spec and the rim is also thinner than what it should be. The brass is of good Sako quality allthough the primer holes are punched and not drilled like Lapua typically has. A removal of burrs is pretty easy with the proper tools and needs to be done only once. I will anneal this Sako brass´s necks because that has not been done to them but thats is pretty straight forward matter and needs to be done only once.

I slugged the barrel and twist is 300mm per turn and measurements of the bore are 8.22mm or .3225-.3236" depending on the measurement tool and where on the bullet I took the measurement so one can say it has the correct .323" bore. The smaller measurement was 8.04mm with a digital caliper as my micrometer has too thick measurement points to be usefull for this measurement. A .324 or .325" lead GC bullet should work just fine. The bore itself is in excellent condition although shortened to 660mm.

Maybe Privi Partizan could supply 58R Basic brass for evebody that needs them ? The idea is to remove the case from the manufacturing process after the head has been made but the body is still straight and not shortened. Sako makes 12.4X55R this way. The rest of the lot is then manufactured to proper 7.62X53R and 8.2X53R brass.

Sako did make shortly after WWII brass called 12.0X75R and 12.0X53R (My 12.4X55R brass is probably the same thing as OD is 12.4mm and ID is12.0mm. 55R vs. 53R is probably the same thing in real life). A bored-out Mosin-Nagant became a poor mans squirrel shotgun when there was a shortage of everything and an abundance of old M-N rifles. Sako sold only brass and no ammo for 12.0X75R was never commercially loaded by Sako.

Pretty interesting stuff compared to reloading for a .308 Win or 9X19.
 
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