[ill1935]

I'm planning on reloading some cartridges for my Moisin Nagant. I have a question in this RE however. All reloading manuals say max oal of cartridge is 3.037. I have some surplus Russian ammo that only measures 2.805. That seems like a lot of difference in oal. Is there a minimum lenght for these. Are any lenghts acceptable in the oal's? On a 150 grain jacketed bullet, seems that too much of the bullet is out of the casing on 3.037. Would appreciate any suggestions from someone who may load this Caliber.:?

 

[Motor]

I'm planning on reloading some cartridges for my Moisin Nagant. I have a question in this RE however. All reloading manuals say max oal of cartridge is 3.037. I have some surplus Russian ammo that only measures 2.805. That seems like a lot of difference in oal. Is there a minimum lenght for these. Are any lenghts acceptable in the oal's? On a 150 grain jacketed bullet, seems that too much of the bullet is out of the casing on 3.037. Would appreciate any suggestions from someone who may load this Caliber.:?

You should have posted this in the "Reloading Handloaders Digest" maybe the Mod. will move it for you.
It seems you are new to reloading as well. The 7.62x54R is kind of an adventure to reload for because the rifles that are chambered for it vary so much. By far most of the difference is in bore/groove diameter. Most of us who reload the 54R will slug the barrel first so we know what size bullet will work best.
For most of my hand loads the 2.800" AOL is the norm.
Please repost your question in the above mentioned forum. We will be very happy to bore you with all the little details.
Motor

 

[ill1935]

&.62 x 54R

You should have posted this in the "Reloading Handloaders Digest" maybe the Mod. will move it for you.
It seems you are new to reloading as well. The 7.62x54R is kind of an adventure to reload for because the rifles that are chambered for it vary so much. By far most of the difference is in bore/groove diameter. Most of us who reload the 54R will slug the barrel first so we know what size bullet will work best.
For most of my hand loads the 2.800" AOL is the norm.
Please repost your question in the above mentioned forum. We will be very happy to bore you with all the little details.
Motor

Thanks. It seems like I get in the wrong forum sometimes. I take your advice.

 

[jrswanson1]

The max is how long OAL should be per specs sent to whatever group decides it. Check your reloading manual for the minimum OAL for the bullet you are loading.

 

[wrench]

Maximum OAL is generally the max length that will run through the magazine. Minimum length will be determined by the bullet you're using.
The Correct length for a given bullet is determined by an individual rifle, and will vary.
Once the Correct length is found, powder charges must be worked up with that bullet, at that length, with that rifle.
You sound like a beginning reloader, I'd suggest a little reading on the subject...
http://www.amazon.com/ABCs-Reloading-C-Rodney-James/dp/0873491904

 

[Dan Schuttig]

It has a lot to do with the throat of the rifle you are using. Optimally, you would want the bullet 2/1000 off of the rifling. Assuming that your reloading dies seat the bullet straight, this would give you the best accuracy because the bullet engages the rifling almost immediately after "takeoff'. The problem with the 54r is the wide variation of throat sizes. Most milsurp rifles have huge throats. (cast bullets generally require bullets that will fill the entire throat for maximum accuracy- look up the lee "cruise missile" for 6.5 swedish or the 8x56r "frankenstien" bullet if you want to see what a bullet that fills the throat on these rifles looks like) The russian rifles, from my exp. have large throats and benefit from long bullets, therefore they can be seated much farther out than say, some of the other mosin nagant models, which have been cut differently. It also depends on the "ogive" of the bullet (best described as the degree or angle that the bullet tapers towards the nose). A classic example of this is the swiss k-31. This has one of the shortest throats of any milsurp ever. Most jacketed bullets will not allow the bolt to close unless the bullet is seated deep within the case. You either have to use a bullet that has a sharp ogive right from where the brass ends, or use a cast bullet with a nose just smaller than the rifling so it doesn't get hung up. (like the rcbs 30-165-sil).
One thing that you could do is to take a fired case, resize the neck ONLY enough to hold some tension on the bullet, but loose enough so that it can still be pushed back into the case with a little pressure. Seat the bullet in your dummy cartridge so most of it hangs outside of the brass. Very slowly and carefully "load" the cartridge into your rifle allowing the rifling to push the bullet back into the case. Very slowly withdraw the case from the rifle making sure not to let the bullet move in or out. Take a OAL, subtract 2 or 3 1000's from that and that should give you an oal that seats the bullet just off of the rifling. Do a couple of these to make sure you get consistensy. You may have a throat so large it doesn't touch the bullet at all. That's ok, seat out as far as the magazine will feed and the neck of the case holds the bullet firm. Make sure you test a few of your cases, sometimes your test bullet(s) are slightly different than the rest, and if you go to long, your rounds get stuck in the rifling and the bolt will be stiff to close. In other words, the best OAL is what seats the bullet just off the rifling, filling the throat, and doesn't cause the bolt to stick.

That's my ramble.....

And don't mess with published OAL measurments in autoloading pistol cartridges, like the 9mm, as the small size of these rounds will cause pressure to rise a lot if the bullet is seated to deep. Rifle, not so much a worry.

 

[ill1935]

Such a very informative explanation. Thanks

 

[Motor]

Yes and like Dan said sometimes you just have to settle on what holds the bullet good. Both of my M39's have deep throats. I load a 150 .312" Hornady and a 174 RN .312" Hornady. Both are jacketed bullets. The OAL at which either one of these will contact the rifling is almost impossible to achieve. I simply load them so the bottom edge of the canalure is at the case mouth and let them jump. They both are very accurate loaded this way so nothing lost. I would rather have sturdy round that won't get altered when feeding from the magazine than one that "may" be a little more accurate.
Motor

 

[Daniel39]

Here's my 2 cents:
- If you have hard time reaching the lands, then don't and go for good insertion depth and bullet retention (neck tension) instead (always).
- Some dies/expander balls seem made for .308 bullets, some for .310. Carefully check the neck OD of an empty resized case, then seat a bullet of your choosing and recheck neck OD. I go for 1.5 to 2.5 thou difference here for good neck tension. With some dies, a .308 bullet will fall into a resized case. More than 2.5 thou and you may want a bigger expander ball or die neck ID.

Daniel39

 

[Leon]

Yes and like Dan said sometimes you just have to settle on what holds the bullet good. Both of my M39's have deep throats. I load a 150 .312" Hornady and a 174 RN .312" Hornady. Both are jacketed bullets. The OAL at which either one of these will contact the rifling is almost impossible to achieve. I simply load them so the bottom edge of the canalure is at the case mouth and let them jump. They both are very accurate loaded this way so nothing lost. I would rather have sturdy round that won't get altered when feeding from the magazine than one that "may" be a little more accurate. Motor

+1. I have measured my M39 chambers with the Hornady OAL gauge and no bullet is long enough to seat to 0.020" jump and have enough length to be secure in the case neck. I use the Lapua D166 bullet and it has a crimp cannelure, so I seat the bullet to the top of cannelure. I figure the Finn's knew what they were doing. The Swedish Mauser is an entirely different story. Fortunately there are bullets available that can be seated to optimal COAL and have enough bullet length for correct neck tension. A general guide is that the minimum seating depth in the case neck is one caliber, i.e. for the 6.5 mm bullet the base should go at least 6.5 mm into the case neck. If you have any misgivings about neck tension, you can use a Lee factory crimp die. I, for one, never use the seating die's built-in crimper. (Added) The bullet should be seated so a minimum of one caliber length of its full diameter is inside the case neck. The boat tail, for obvious reasons, does not contact the case neck, so the insertion depth measurement is taken above the taper.

 

[Clark]

I have ~ a dozen different Mosin Nagants and they are all sort of the same, except the M39. It has a tighter chamber.

Generally what I do is Lapua 7.62x53R brass, 4895 powder, and Sierra .311" 180 gr Soft point #2310, seated long to jam into the lands [3" OAL].
If I work up until I get stiff bolt lift, that is ~~50 gr.
If I back off until the bolt lifts easily and then back off some more for saftety margin, I will be at ~ 47 gr getting 2800 fps over the chronograph in the long barreled ones.
49 gr is ~ 2950 fps, and I have hunted with that.
I know a guy who has been shooting Mosin Nagants for 45 years. He still shoots a deer every year with one. He uses the same bullet, but 4350.

If someone have a boat tailed hunting bullet with good accuracy in Mosin Nagants, I would like to know about it.

 

[Daniel39]

...
Generally what I do is Lapua 7.62x53R brass, 4895 powder, and Sierra .311" 180 gr Soft point #2310, seated long to jam into the lands [3" OAL].
If I work up until I get stiff bolt lift, that is ~~50 gr.
If I back off until the bolt lifts easily and then back off some more for saftety margin, I will be at ~ 47 gr getting 2800 fps over the chronograph in the long barreled ones.
49 gr is ~ 2950 fps, and I have hunted with that.
...

Clark, a 180gn bullet at 2950fps sounds way hot. Have you seen this kind of loading data presented in any reloading book or powder maker's data?

Daniel39

 

[Clark]

I make up my own loads.
I have ~50 load books, and I only read them to make fun of them.

I just worked up to a stiff bolt lift and then backed off a safety margin.
I have shot that load in M44s, 91/30s, an M39, and a 91/59.

The Wikipedia page says that the 7.62x54R cartridge is rated for 390 Mega Pascals = 57 kpsi
I can tell by looking at them that the rifle, cartridge, and primer are good for 80 kpsi before it beats up the brass.

If I plug 57 kpsi into Quickload and use H322 for the surplus bulk 4895 I was shooting [which is a match in velocity and pressure for a lot of cartridges and bullets I have tried], then I get the chrono velocity predicted and a prediction of 69 kpsi. [When Quickload predicts the velocity the chronograph measures, it means I am doing it right]

So I am running half way between rated and what will scratch up the brass case head with stiff bolt lift.

But that velocity is possible at the rated pressure is with Re17.
Have you experimented with Re17?
Astounding velocities that I would have bet were not possible.
I don't use it because it is temp unstable and I am a long range hunter.
I need constant velocities, so I am moving toward Hodgdon extreme powders.

 

[Daniel39]

Clark, what you do may work for Soviet rifles and Finn M39s. I would not try in a non-D Finn M27, 28 or 28/30.

I get ruptured primers with PRVI 182gn new ammo in Finn 28/30s, where the groove OD is .3095 and bullet OD is .310. I think I recall the 182gn PRVI does not chrono anywhere close to 2950fps, more like 2650-2700.

Daniel39

 

[Clark]

Sometimes I get really nasty pressure spikes and high chrono velocities in my M39 when the bolt is hard to close.
That is a tight chamber.