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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This thread deserves a cautious resurrection. Among aficionados and amateurs alike, the formerly extremely cheap training rounds (gallery rounds, kammarpatron with the 0.6 gram = 9 grains cup bullet) and the wood-bulleted blanks have commanded considerable interest. On one hand, blasting away with the gallery rounds on a 25 metres handgun range is great fun (though the distance is too large already and accuracy sucks). On the other hand, numerous enterprising and money-conscious reloaders (I shall leave the designation as "bottom-feeder" for the pen of such cruffler carps as Dutchman ;-)) have used these rounds as a base for Berdan reloads.

Some have dumped the powder and bullet altogether and reloaded with new bullet and fresh propellant, makingh use of the formed cases with original primers. Some have only used the fired cases, and others have even gone as far as to re-use the extremely fast powder used in these rounds, in order to make cast bullet cartridges. Personally, I feel that simply stuffing an original 7,62x54R into a 8x58RD chamber, firing it, and just waiting what happens would be a much less unsafe endeavour than these pursuits (note that I wrote "less unsafe", not "safer"), but then, who am I to teach cruffler carps? A cruffler octopus at best...

Seriously now, I shall first copy the previous thread, and then add a response of nmy own via the reply function.

Enjoy :),
Carcano

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Author Topic
USMCsean
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 6:00:12 PM
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I was curious if anyone has or have reloaded the wooden training rounds OR if it would even be worth it to remove the bullet and replace with a regular bullet.

I was thinking it might be okay to do, since the brass, powder and primer would already be supplied, just buying the bullet and then repress.

Any thoughts?



Dutchman
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 7:44:57 PM
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The powder used in the Los Patron and Gallery Practice is a fast pistol powder entirely unsuitable for anything but light to moderate cast bullet use. It is not suitable for jacketed bullet use. Many of us have utilized the Gallery Practice rounds to pull the brass cup and dump the powder and used the primed case. I've loaded a bunch of cast loads using the Gallery powder for both handgun and rifle cast bullet loads. Its almost identical to Unique. The English translation for this powder is Rifle Practice Powder 1. I'm sure that's the military lingo and not the powder manufacture terminology. The last 3 years the Gallery primed cases and Gallery powder is all I've used for loading 6.5x55 130gr cast bullet loads. I'm getting low on it so I'll have to dig into the crate and do some more. I'll usually do 200 of the Gallery cases at a time. The only preparation I do is to run the primed cases into a Lyman M die .26 so the neck and case mouth are better prepped for cast bullet seating. I've had zero problems so far. I've loaded 7.5x55 Swiss, 7.65x53 Argentine and 7.62x54R Russian with the Gallery powder and cast bullets. A 200gr RN .311" in 7.62x54R and 12 to 13 grs Gallery Powder is very accurate and right around 1,500 fps out of a 30" barrel (chronographed). My Finn m/91 B-barrel will put 7 of 10 rds into one hole at 50yds with this load and bullet. My 1891 Argentine rifle will put 3 of 5 into one hole at 50yds.

Both cases of the Gallery Practice I have, and one of the cases is still sealed, were purchased from Century Arms in Vermont when the price was $59 with free shipping. For 1,400 rds it was a smokin' deal. A primed case and useable powder. But as the price rose and Century tacked on shipping it lost its appeal for the average crufflercarp*. I'm almost down to the lower 1/4 of the 1st case with a 2nd case unopened. I expect it'll last me quite a while.

Let me further say that as with any fast pistol powder in a rifle case for a cast bullet application you can reach extremely dangerous pressure levels _fast_ if you don't watch what you're doing. The load I quoted above, 12 to 13grs in 7.62x54R, can be used in most all military cartridges of similar case capacity including .303 British, .30-06, 8x57mm, 7x57mm and even 12,7x44R Swedish in the rolling block with 350gr cast bullets. But if you exceed the threshold where you get excessive pressure you could be very sorry. What is that threshold? I don't know exactly. At XX grs in the above cases you're going to have flat primers and complete case obturation indicating you're getting very near and should scale back. At that 12 to 13grs its just fine (except in 7.5x55**), but fast powders can spike very fast so I offer this caution for those who try this. The same caution applies when using Unique, Reddot, Herco, Bullseye and others. Powders like 2400, SR4759, Reloader 7, XMP5744*** you won't have this problem as they're all bulky slower powders that fill the case better. As far as Gallery Powder and Unique I've had some excellent accuracy so the issue of fast powders and load density isn't a hard and fast rule. I use no filler in any cast rifle load. I've used du Pont Kapok in the past but I don't use anything anymore and have no problems whatsoever.

In 6.5x55 Swede m/96 I loaded a range of powder weights with the 130gr Louverin cast bullet. I did this in Indiana where I could step out on the back deck and test fire it right then instead of having to pack things up and go to the range. I started at 8grs of Gallery Powder and went to 14grs. I settled on 13.2grs (Lee dipper 1.6cc). I've since reduced that to 10.5grs (Lee dipper 1.3cc). The 13.2grs gave 1,725 feet per second. I felt the need to lower the velocity because the fast twist of the Swedish Mauser is not cast bullet friendly, so the lower load data will be standard. I've not had a chance to target the 10.5gr w/140gr Louverin as yet. I ran out of the 130gr Louverin and now have 500 pieces of the 140gr Louverin from Wayne Doudna in Wisconsin.

I used the Lee dippers as an experiment. Load variation as chronographed showed very consistant velocities. Don't let anybody tell you the Lee dippers aren't capable of excellent accuracy. The key to using Lee dippers is the consitancy of how you scoop the powder up. I use a small dessert dish filled about 1 1/2 inches deep with powder. Scoop it through the powder in a wide radius, do not level the scoop but a light tap sideways with your forefinger. You practice your scoop method and you'll have fine accuracy with the Lee dippers.

*crufflercarp is a bottom feeding milsurp rifle licensed collector 03FFL (federal firearms license) in the U.S. I should say that licenses are not required to collect in the U.S. but they are required to ship qualified firearms between the states and to received them at home without interference. Cost $30 for 3 years and there are discounts given at places such as www.brownells.com and others so its a rather good thing all around and there is very little problem with the government unless a 03 FFL tries selling guns as if he were a licensed dealer, which is a 01 FFL.


**In the Swiss 1896/11 7.5x55 rifle the 200gr RN cast bullet and 13.2grs gave excessive pressure indicators. There are probably just a couple explainations why. The particular bullet has a nose diameter of .304" and a body diameter of .311". It would not chamber in the K31 but would chamber and fire in the 96/11. The throating is different between these two rifles. I dropped the load for the Swiss 7.5x55 to 10.5grs of Gallery Powder with the 200gr RN and 13.2grs for the 180gr RN with a .300" nose diameter and .309" body diameter. I've fired 50rds of this 180gr RN in the K31 and 96/11 and its a nice load. This very same load of 13.2 grs w/200gr RN cast bullet in the 7.65x53 Argentine fired in both the 1891 and 1909 Mausers was perfectly fine and gave no excessive pressure signs. I took this to indicate the bullet with the .304" nose diameter was unsuitable for the 7.5x55 Swiss unless downloaded.

I offer these as examples of how different rifles can react to the same load and how you have to be very prudent in what and how you handload ammunition.

***The bulkier powders such as Aliant 2400, SR4759, Reloader 7, XMP5744 _can_ be loaded to excessive pressure just as most any other powder can. But being bulky they can't normally be DOUBLE loaded like fast low weight loads of Unique, Reddot, Herco, Bullseye. I've used Reloader 7 in the 8x58R Danish in the m/1889 Swedish rolling block quite a bit. My first load with it was XX grs and dang, that load would smack the gong at 200 yds right nice. But it left the case completely obturated (expanded) and was just plain too much, especially too much for a rifle made in 1893. I've since downloaded that particular load to 26 grs Reloader 7 with a 165 gr Louverin cast bullet.

I've not had as good of results with my cast bullet loading in 6.5x55 as some of you, namely Tom in Pittsburg with the heavy Lee bullet, and some others. If you have something to add please do so. And since I've included load data and comments pertaining to rifle calibers other than Swedish if you have a question about cast bullet loading in a rifle or caliber other than Swedish we'll allow it in this thread only. I would much prefer that your questions find answers than you going away without the information you need, but let's confine the topic to cast bullet loading in rifles only.

This case of m/12 Gallery Practice ammo was packed by Norma in 1963. The rifle is my 1900 Oberndorf FrankenSwede that I shoot more than anything else.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/2007723194227_ammo1.jpg
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Edited by - Dutchman on 07/23/2007 8:05:59 PM



Dutchman
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 10:31:27 PM
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Actually, I'm the one who coined the term, crufflercarp, to lable those crufflers who regularly and only bought 3/fer $100 type rifles. It was and is a term of endearment, not a knock, that came from many years, 12 now, on a particular c-r-ffl email list, the same list where the term "cruffler" was born many years ago. All the $29 rifles, $39, $49, $59 etc. That group was populated mostly by bottom feeders. They gushed on and on about the MAS36 for $30 & $40 despite it being the most godawful ugly rifle ever made. When Turk rifles were abundant and cheap that was the next rifle that attracked the swarms of crufflercarp along with the $10 per 100,000 8x57 Turk ammo (seemed like it was that cheap). I'm born of the days of $39 Swede m/96 and the only reason I was buying them was because I was the original crufflercarp.

Does that explain for to you?



jim in Oregon
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 09:17:44 AM
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USMCSean, Dutchman pretty well covered your questions.
I'd add that IF you pick up some .217 Berdan primers the brass used for either gallery practice or wooden bulleted ammo can be reloaded also.
DO NOT USE THE EXISTING powder in either practice rounds for real bullets..
Use brass-primer, check trim and chamfer and reload with conventional powder-bullet.
The wooden bullets won't come out using an inertia puller.9too light)

I took an old pair of pliers and using a chainsaw file, filed a groove in the plier jaws to fit the wooden bullet .Then with light gripping pressure and a twist-pull, the wooden bullets come out intact.They are hollow and otherwise can be crushed and then it takes more time to remove them.Jim



capnduane
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 9:48:52 PM
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Ok, they are hollow! that explains why when I aim at the ground in front of the bench, they don't even make it 20yds! They must disintegrate almost immediately.
Dutch, 10/4 on the crufflercarp, my first milsurp was a Spanish 1916 carbine in godawful condition for $19 from a dimestore, JJ Newberrys, I think? (man does that date me)



MP78
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 8:33:23 PM
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Crufflercarp is good and I can see the term being used as endearment. I felt the same way when Sandy (owner, Aztec Arms) told me I was just like him (A Cheap Bastard)...Jim



USMCsean
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 10:41:51 PM
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Thanks for the information Dutch and everyone. One day when I get enough chances to sit down a do some reloading, I'll have to put this one on the list. I don't have time to shoot, let alone do ammo right now. Thankfully, I'll be done for the semester with school and get to enjoy a Co-Op.
 
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