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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
irishsteve
Posted - 10/30/2004 : 11:37:50 PM
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I have a swed rolling block in 8x58r. Has anyone ever fire formed 7.62x54r russian. I've heard of someone fireforming 8x56r Hun, but the rim is thinner. Would this cause headspace problems? I know I can buy brass, but i'm always looking for the least costly way out.

jorma
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 12:59:28 PM
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My friend at Sweden has done that and I haven´t heard any problems.
I think the is little bit short but that`s your problem.


Dutchman
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 1:46:22 PM
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A thinner rim would indeed cause excess headspace and should not be done simply because you're looking to cut the expense of correct cartridge cases. Gas escape on 1889 rolling blocks isn't that great and the last thing you want is 40,000 psi trying to find a way out of the chamber when the case head ruptures due to excess headspace.

Not a good idea and won't be encouraged in this forum.


The Dane
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 4:22:41 PM
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Why not size 45-70?

http://bildbanken.nordiq.net/pic/8x58-45-70.jpg

Works fine and is cheap.
The short one is a .45-70 resized and the long one is a original 8x58RD for comparison.
 

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There's a lot we've learned since many of these notes were posted. I'm debating their usefulness now.


Dutchman
 

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Discussion Starter #3
You might be right. I am working through the old board from the back, the oldest postings first, then the more recent ones. Presently I am at page 42 (June 2005).
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Fireforming 8x58 RD from 8x56 R 30/31 S ?

I would like to give voice Dutchman's cautions and concerns, also via import:

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TMeyer
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 2:57:30 PM
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Hi All
I ran into a sight the other day that apparently had 8x58r reloads at a very reasonable price. When I talked to the folks there, they said they were made by running an 8x56r thru a 8x58r resizing die. Anyone had any experience with this method? By the way a box of 20 loaded shells were priced at $18.00
Thanks Tom

jp
Gunboards Super Premium Member
Posted - 12/17/2005 : 5:34:05 PM
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Never tried it but the price is good!
I compared some 1939 Danish rounds with the 1938 made 56R, the rim on the Dane is 20 thousands larger and the base diameter is 10 thou bigger. My concern is the smaller base diameter on the 8x56R; .010" is not too much smaller if your rifle has a tight chamber but may be a problem with normal "loose" military chambers. Also the shoulder will have to move forwards a lot when fireforming the 56R, I hope the brass was annealed. One other thing to consider is the rifle you will be using....is their loading safe in an old rolling block?


kriggevaer
Posted - 12/17/2005 : 7:59:29 PM
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Well, maybe - I'm with jp on this. I would be cautious with it. I don't have any 8x56r cartridges to compare to my 8x58r, but looking at the reference books the Danish cartridge is bigger than the Hungarian in all the dimensions.


Dutchman
Moderator - Swedish Military Firearms Forum
Posted - 12/17/2005 : 8:43:44 PM
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We cannot and will not promote unsafe practices with respect to safety with ammunition not expressly designed for the application and this 8x56 Mannlicher proposition may well fit that definition.

What you're doing is trading safety to save a few dollars. Not a good move, IMO. Brass is available from Buffalo Arms formed for 8x58RD. It is of the correct size in all regards. The alternative is to form a slightly shorter version from exisitng .45-70 cases but still of dimensional integrity as to be safe. When you comprimise safety for a smaller head diameter in a cartridge case you're inviting case head separations and ruptures. In the rolling block action, that has nearly no gas escape features, it simply results in being foolish at best, and hopefully not injured.

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TMeyer
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 4:21:36 PM
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All
I want no one to think I thought this was a safe idea. I simply ran across a website that was selling the ammo. The man I talked to indicated he had sold a bunch of it recently, and I was asking if any of the experts here had tried it. Also, if 45-70 cases make a shorter version, is that good on the neck section of the chamber when shot? I figure it will erode the neck. Why not use 45-90?
Thanks Tom Meyer

Ed Novak
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 4:51:18 PM
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Tom: I understood your initial query and thought it interesting. Potential for litigation, I suppose, limits the life of any discussion. ed


Dutchman
Moderator - Swedish Military Firearms Forum
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 7:33:37 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Ed Novak

Tom: I understood your initial query and thought it interesting. Potential for litigation, I suppose, limits the life of any discussion. ed

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Has nothing to do with litigation. Has everything to do with what's right and what's not. What's not right often leads to disaster.

As responsible persons we are obligated to consider those shooters who are not fully informed. Suggesting... even remotely, or in an obtuse way, that using incorrect ammunition is somehow acceptable or even open to discussion, is unconscionable. It simply will not be tolerated on this forum.

So asking, "has anybody used the wrong ammunition in such and such a rifle....". No, we have not and will not, nor will we discuss using the incorrect ammunition on this forum. I know this isn't exactly how your note was termed but it could be taken that way, even in the context of using an ill fitting cartridge case to form another cartridge case.

Tom - I understand what you're query was about. You just didn't phrase it very well. I hope you understand my reasoning for locking the other topic in lieu of my comments above.

8x58RD taken from original Danish military cartridge:

head diameter = .504"
rim thickness = .058"
rim diameter = .574"
case oal = 2.272"
bullet diameter
at case mouth = .323"

8x56R for the 1895 Hungarian rifles.

head diameter = .491
rim thickness = .055
rim diameter = .554
case oal = 2.194
bullet diameter
at case mouth = .329"

Do NOT shoot this 8x56R in the Swedish rolling block or Danish Krag. The bullet is too large and will severely damage the rifle, at the very least. As well, the pressure is far in excess of what the rolling block or Krag was designed to withstand.

Do you understand now why I consider this a dangerous, confusing and inappropriate topic for this forum?



TMeyer
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 11:22:18 AM
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Dutchman
I understand fully, however the premise was not shooting 8x56r in a 8x58r gun, but resizing 8x56 brass in a proper sizing die and reloading with the proper bullet etc.
Tom Meyer


Ed Novak
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 11:12:10 PM
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Dutchman: Dimension data speaks for your previous admonition, thank you, I appreciate that. "Inquiring minds want to know..." sort of thing - the "why/why not" are important to me, not just the "yes/no". ed


DocAV
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 11:40:38 PM
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The Questyion of case forming, chamber tolerances, dimensions of source brass, etc, is a oft-argued problem.

Whilst I fully Agree with the premise that INCORRECT interchambering of Ammunition is a Taboo topic, unless it is To WARN New Shooters or the unaware (older )Shooters of the potential for destructive meltdown of their favourite gun, But the sensible discussion of the use of Source brass shell cases for Forming Up NEW, Handloaded ammo is a totally different matter.

How many of use used 30/06 cases to make up 7,7 Japanese (or even 6,5 Swedish Mauser)Ammo, even though the difference in head diameter was at the limit (upper) of brass case expansion tolerances???

I have made 8x52R Siamese, using 8x56R BRASS Cases (Once Fired) or even Factory primed cases, and the difference in head diameter is the same as for the 8x58R Danish Case (both the 8x52R and the 8x58R are similar to 45/70 head sizes (Rims are different)==.500-505 head.
In the strong Siamese mauser action, the use of 8x56R CASES is quite reasonable (.324 diameter projectiles).

The question in the Danish cartridge is this>>> is the 2mm shortness of the case of any particular damage to the chamber of the Danish rifle??? Not realy, unless you plan to shoot thousands of rounds of Very Hot, very erosive Double-base Powders through it...Not very Likely.
I suppose the use of .45/70 cases will give some "Brass Flow" in necking down, especially if a multi-stage necking scheme is used ( .45 to .40. to .33, to 8mm...) this will lengthen the brass
sufficiently to "cover the gap". I think that use of .45/90 cases would be a tad expensive.
Nonte (1967) did suggest a method of "Re-drawing" .45/70 and .348 W cases to get extra length, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion, for such a small length difference.

As to the use of Undersize Brass, If the difference is sufficient, then a Sleeve of thin-walled brass tube ("K&S" Tube from your Hobby shop, made in Illinois) can take up the slack...I have sleeved 7,62x54R cases, trimmed them, and they make excellent 8x52R Siamese.
Sleeved brass 7,62x54R cases would also make and excellent 8x58R case as well ( a bit short, but that is not too much of a problem.)

Anyway, I consider any topic dealing with the adaptation of brass cases to fit a particular chamber to be fair comment on these Boards, as long as the normal safety alerts are maintained.

regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics





DocAV
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 5:08:14 PM
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After a rather Terse private response from the Moderator, regarding the content of my previous reply RE: Cartridge CASE conversions and rifle chambers, in particular the 8x58R Reminton Rollingblock conversion of Swedish origin, I can ONLY say, that a proper, reasoned reading of the Text will show that:

(A) Nothing in my Reply intimates or recommends the use of "8x56R Ammunition" in an 8x58R chamber, (for the reasons already explained, Bullet size, powder charges, etc., by other Posters,

(B) Even though a Siamese Mauser or Arisaka may have design parameters which make Gas escape from failed cases safe for the user (Gas holes, enclosed Bolt head, etc), The Loading density of the 8x58R cartridge is such that any sensible handloader will load any cartridge case used within the limits of the gun he is using, be it a converted Remington c1870 BP action (#1 Action) or other (Swedish made) clone of the late 1870s or 1880s.
We cannot be responsible for protecting others from their own stupidity. despite whatever we say on these boards, there are still people who will (for example) put 8x56R Mannlicher Ammo into an 8x56R Kropatschek Steyr Rifle, with disastrous results (almost happened here about 10 years ago, and it was a Dealer, as well); The Same applies for the 8x58R Danish type chamber (whether Rolling Block or Danish Krag.

My take on the Size differences is that One can overcome them by sleeving the case for a better fit, keeping Handloads mild,( always a good rule) and fireforming the case if the size difference of unsleeved cases is within reasonable limits ( less than 0,010 inch on diameter;) Then neck sizing only, to reduce over working the brass of the body of the case.
The 8x58R cartridge was developed in an era when Black Powder was giving way to Smokeless, and I am quite sure that the cartridge passed through what might be called a "Semi-Smokeless" stage, as did many of the other "8mm" Europeansof the Period. Even the later production Danish 8mm cartridges of the 20th Century, with "Modern" Smokeless Powders would have maintained the Lower pressure levels developed in the 1890s...in keeping with the original Rifle design (whether Swedish RRB or Danish Krag.)

As to safety, I have made 8x58R cases from all the available sources (.45/70 cases (Winchester brass), .45 basic Brass (Bertram) .40/82 brass (Bertram) .33 Winchester (Bertram brass), a bit short; and sleeved .303 cases and .30/40 cases (Turned brass sleeve with extra rim diameter); Once Fired 8x56R Mannlicher cases were also tried, and required an intial fire forming Load with the use of masking tape to centre the case in the chamber, to achieve concentric expansion of the body; after that, the cases worked fine.

All the methods mentioned above are from Nonte's "Home Guide to Crtridge Conversions" (Stackpole, 1967) and I have used them since acquiring his Book in 1968, with no problems, not only in Swedish rolling Blocks (in the last 10 years) but in a lot of other hard to get calibres (example: Sleeved .303 cases to make 8x50R Mannlicher ( 1970); Sleeved .30/06 to make 7,5 Swiss cases;(1984)Sleeved .303 to make 8x52R Siamese cases, Sleeved 7,62x54R Russian to make 8x52R cases, Sleeved .348Win or Mil.8mm Lebel cases to make .433 Egyptian Rolling Blaock cases, and so on.

With the passage of time and the appearance of more readily available Proper Brass in a lot of calibres, the need for "Sleeved" or expanded cases is diminishing, but there will always be a need for the technique.

To attempt to "censor" mention of different ways of making cases for some misguided sense of safety is, quite frankly, anti-Gun, anti-scientific, and simply put, NOT helpful.

I may not be a regular to this particular Board, but I have been (and will continue to be,)available to contribute to this and other parts of the Gunboards family. If I am not welcome here, then so be it; Interested readers can go to other sections of the net for information.

Regards, and safe shooting,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics



Ed Novak
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 6:49:28 PM
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Many of us have been the recipients of information of inestimable value from DocAV on other fora/sites for some time. To say that DocAV's knowledge and insight are of significant standing is an understatement. Having said that and recognizing that I have created some contention here on more than one occasion and believing that this site is managed as the moderator and owner see personally desirable, I will cease to make any input. Not taking my marbles and going home but rather seeing that my disagreement is with management and I am unwilling to cease to challenge when I feel it appropriate; as I previously said, the "Why/why not" are important, if the controller only denies further discussion, nothing of value has transpired. I have enjoyed the site; especially the contributor's input. ed


TMeyer
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 7:24:10 PM
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All
Sorry I touched off such a debate. As the new guy and less than an expert on metric rounds, I will back off and keep my comments to myself. My sole pourpose was to expand my data base and be safe doing it. My thanks to all and have a good holiday season.
Tom meyer


jp
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 11:40:36 AM
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Yo Tom, thanks for an interesting topic, I learned a few things from this discussion. Welcome to Gunboards too!
I also see a need to put Nonte's book on my "gotta get" list.
 
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