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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=189022

Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 10/16/2006 : 11:04:12 AM
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Almost four years ago I got into a group buy of a big 170-grain custom 6.5 mm mould order with Lee Precision. It took about four months before the moulds were delivered -- and then it took me another four YEARS to really play around with it.

Here is the drawing that Lee worked from:
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/2006101695359_prints-a.jpg
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Originally designed for wheel weights, my bullets are cast from an alloy of one part tin to 16 parts lead (1:16), and weigh right in at about 169.5 grains.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/2006101695632_cast-Swede-bullet-75.jpg
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At the same time the moulds were ordered, custom sizing dies were also made available. I ordered one that sizes my bullets to a diameter between .267" and .268" -- the gas check is seated in the same operation, and the bullet is lubed with a commercial Alox/beeswax mix. I then seat them "long" for loading and shooting singly, without using the rifle's magazine. The bullets are seated just over the second driving band, resulting in an overall cartridge length of about 3.05 inches.

I tried several loads with these bullets, but the best one -- by far -- was 16.5 grains of Accurate's XMP-5744. I haven't chronographed this load yet, but estimate it at about 1,500 fps.

This five-shot group was fired off the bench at 100 yards from my beautiful 1900 Oberndorf long rifle using open iron sights with the rear sight set at about 425 meters using a Västerås insert for elevation adjustment:
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/20061016105012_Swede-rcvr-top-75.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/20061016105556_Swede-rcvr-left-75.jpg
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Loaded per above using Lapua brass and Winchester Large Pistol primers.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/20061016101733_target-10-03-06-d-75.jpg
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As best as I can measure this group, center-to-center, it seems to be about .766 inches. I've never been able to shoot a group under an inch before using a vintage military rifle with open iron sights, using jacketed or cast bullets. Needless to say, I'm a very happy guy.

The holes in the target may indicate that the long bullets were not quite stabilized -- but that didn't seem to matter.

For those of you who might be interested, I believe that these moulds are still available through MidSouth Shooter's Supply (under Special Order Moulds -- their part number 006-6.5SWED ).

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/

I would be interested in learning whether any of you are having similar luck with this bullet.

Thanks.
Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com



JK
Posted - 10/16/2006 : 10:00:01 PM
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Bravo Tom, Looks like you found a winning combination.
Do you get much lead buildup in the barrel?
Also, the mold is on backorder, and so is my order.

Very nice shooting as well !


Dutchman
Posted - 10/17/2006 : 8:35:22 PM
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Thank you, Tom, for a very thorough report. I want to keep it as a sticky for future reference.


HikerLT
Posted - 11/05/2006 : 12:59:24 AM
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I was also in a group buy several years ago - and have a question.

If I recall correctly, the first mold produced was incorrect, and Lee then produced another run and shipped out a 2nd, correct mold. I forget the exact details as to why the first one was bad - anyone remember ?

My problem is that I have the 2 molds, and can't remember which is which. Any advice on telling the good one from the bad one ?
***************

update 1/6/07

Tom sent me one of his bullets from his mould - and in comparing it to the moulds I have , there is a difference.
The Swede mould group buy I was in, produced a mould with a pointed bullet.
here is a pic showing the 2 moulds ( one is the first run mould, which turned out to be bad in that the bullet produced would not chamber into a swede mauser, the other mould is the 2nd run correct one - and also shown is the bullet from Tom's mould)

I believe the group buy for these moulds was on the "old" Tuco's forum, which was probably more than 5 years ago at least.

Any info from someone who also participated in that group mould buy is appreciated.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/hikerlt/20071622810_swede_1.JPG
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Edited by - HikerLT on 01/06/2007 10:08:37 PM


milkman-06
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 11:43:30 PM
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Tom,
Thank you for the encouraging news on these real bullets. Have you tried pushing it closer to 2000fps? If so ,when does the accuracy
start dropping? I will order that small cruise missle mould later this month. Thank you as well as the designer.
Russ N


Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 3:58:03 PM
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Hi, Russ.

When I was working up loads for this bullet, there wasn't anything to go on in any of the usual manuals -- none of them had a 6.5 m/m cast bullet this heavy.

I had a couple of good loads from an older shooting friend, but they used a lighter SAECO bullet. I got out my calculator and attempted to scale his loads to suit my heavier bullet.

The resulting load using 2400 produced poor results, but the 16.5 grain 5744 load proved to be a winner. When I saw the group, I decided to stop working up any more loads.

I would be hesitant to push a bullet cast from this alloy as fast as 2,000 fps -- even with a gas check. I'm afraid it would lead up the bore. Perhaps one made from linotype, but I am only a paper-puncher, not a hunter -- so I'm not going to try any other loads with this bullet. I may give it a try in my M95 Dutch Mannlicher long rifle, and will chrono it one of these days in my Swede and post the results here.

Good luck with yours. Tom

www.vintage-gunlore.com



milkman-06
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 9:58:57 PM
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Tom,
Thanks for the extra info. I have read many places that pushing Karlina and her sisters get poorer results, than a 1500-1800 fps loads. This particular mold looks like it should engrave the rifling and should be large enough to fill the throat-giving support to the lead spinner before the big light at the back deforms said projectile??(hopefully). I also shoot the wily squares and rectangles and do my best to make them (w)holy.
good shooting
Russ N


Dandy2fingers
Posted - 11/26/2006 : 09:41:14 AM
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Tom,
What sizing equipment do you use? Where did you get the custom sizing dies and gas checks > .266? Let me know when you get a chance....


Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 11/26/2006 : 11:54:13 AM
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I use an RCBS sizing press, and got the custom sizing die as part of the original mould order.

A good source of custom sizing dies is S & S Firearms. I have a bunch of custom sizing dies made up by them, and am very happy with them -- not expensive, either.

http://www.ssfirearms.com/index.html

I'm just using standard Hornady 6.5 m/m gaschecks (that's apparently what this mould was designed for).

Good luck! Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com



Johnny B
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 11:37:08 PM
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Tom,

I recently decided to try using the load that you posted with the Lee Precision Custom 170gr. bullet. I just located a '96 Swedish Mauser that I had buried among some of my other militaries. I used your data; a large pistol standard primer and 16.5 grains of XMP-5744. Accuracy was excellent, although not quite as good as yours. The average of ten chronograph readings was 1,643 Ft./Sec. I did not compute standard deviation. I plan to do some more developmental work on this load. Brass was neck sized. I'll keep you posted. I worked up a few loads myself with other powders and another bullet (Lyman #266469) and will report on them very soon. I've got to get a Vasteras insert myself. I'm on the lookout for one.

Johnny B


Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 08:30:19 AM
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Hello, Johnny B,

Thanks for the chrono info. I'm waiting for a new chrono to arrive -- I killed my old one last week with a stray wad from some Snider loads I was shooting This time I'm getting a shield to go with it.

I have a couple of experienced shooting friends who have had very good luck with the Lyman 266469 bullet. Their best load has been 17.0 grains of IMR-4895. I'll be interested to hear about your loads with this bullet.

Have you thought about joining the Cast Bullet Association -- there is a wealth of information available there, and they sponsor a fun postal match program that has 20+ different matches over the course of each year.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/

Also, contact me off list -- I may have a lead on a source for a Västerås rear sight for you.

[email protected]


looseprojectile
Posted - 01/19/2007 : 11:22:47 AM
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Tom;
I just ordered the mold, gas chechs and sizing die from Midsouth this morning.
Question. Do you think it is important to size larger than .266? My rifles all are very close to .264 groove. That is what Midsouth had and I can always polish the sizing die out a thou. or two if need be later.
I want to thank you for shareing this information as I have four 6.5X55 rifles to feed.
I have a good quantity of linotype metal to make tough long bullets.
Happy shooting


Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 01/19/2007 : 1:04:57 PM
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My suggestion would be to go ahead and see how the .266" bullets shoot in your rifles. Depending on the velocity you intend to shoot at, you may want to consider a softer alloy than lino -- so that the bullet will better be able to bump up and fill the grooves.

If you still don't see the kind of accuracy you want, you can try opening up your sizing die.

An alternative would be to hand lube a few of your unsized bullets and see how they shoot -- that will give you an indication of whether or not bullets larger than .266" will shoot better in your rifles.

Good luck, and let us know how you make out.

Best, Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Cast bullets in Swede 96

thorsridge
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 12:55:43 PM
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Hello! I looked in the reloading section and don't think that my question really fits there. I want to try to get cast bullets to work out of the long barrel of the Model 96. I would like to use the Swede Gallery Powder I salvaged using some 140 grain RCBS cast bullets, lubed with 40/60% Alox/Beeswax. I'm not interested in high speed but in group size. 1000fps would be fine. 50 yard accuracy test from the bench. Thanks,
Greg


jpattersonnh
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 8:04:43 PM
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This is a very good sight. There may be a recipe for your needs on loadswap.
http://www.shootersforum.com/index.htm?

You can also post the subject, the moderators are into 6.5x55 and they sell cast bullets on the sight.


marysdad
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 8:35:41 PM
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Everything that I've read indicates generally poor results with cast bullets in Swedes. The twist rate is not right for cast pills.


thorsridge
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 06:13:17 AM
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Comment re: the fact that cast bullets don't work out too well in the Swede are looking more and more true. Fired a load yesterday in one of my Swedes with lesser rifling and got mediocre resutls. Then thought I would run the same load thru a Model 96 that I mounted a Williams foolproof receiver sight on---deadly accurate with jacketed bullets--and got more mediocre results! I use granulated plastic filler in many reloads but I have never tried it with a Swede. Time to roll that out, I guess. Works well in larger calibers.
Greg T.


Curator
Posted - 05/24/2006 : 7:53:15 PM
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Accuracy with cast bullets is possible and can be better than what you get with jacketed. To have success, you must have hard (BHN22-25) bullets that are .005" under throat (not bore) size, and keep velocities under 1600 fps. Swedes usually have groove diameters of .266-.268 and throats of .001 over grove diameter. Off-the-shelf 6.5mm bullet moulds will run .264 and will not work!
You will also have to get every last trace of copper out of the rifling before you start.

I have very good accuracy using an LBT .267-140 gascheck bullet over 35 grains of WC860 (a military surplus powder for the .50BMG) 5 shot groups of .75" at 100 yards with my 12X scoped M96 are ordinary. I get excited when they group around .50".
Others I know have almost as good accuracy using 16 grains of Alliant 2400.

Seat bullets out to touch rifling or even a bit of "crush" when you close the bolt. Fireformed, neck sized brass helps with accuracy. Check it out!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Buckshot
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 03:59:57 AM
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........My suggestion would be to contact the "Bullshop". This is not a mass production outfit but a dedicated caster who casts custom. If you don't know what you need, he can tell you how to find out.



These 2 are kind of the "Frick and Frack" in 6.5mm :). Both are seated to engrave. On the left is a 132gr Loverin from a custom 6 cavity mould. The one on the right is available (mould, not bullets) from MidSouth. It's a 172gr slug that was designed by a member of:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php

BTW, if you go there,check out the "Group Buy" forum as they are running a repeat of the 6 cavity 132gr slug shown above.



In addition to the 2 shown above (of which #4 here is the MidSouth bullet) I have the moulds for and have shot these. #1 is an old Lyman SC 128gr HP, #2 Is a custom 2 cav done 7-8 years ago for a 140gr FN, and #3 Is a discontinued Lyman #268645 @ 152grs.

The 6.5 Swede can be superbly accurate with cast lead so long as you don't try to push them much over 1650 fps. The lighter slugs can be pushed a bit faster. The fast twist isn't kind to cast lead, and the high rotational velocities cause groups to open as the speed increases. However, they maintain their velocity well and the Lyman 152gr at 1550 fps will handily knock over the 200 meter ram in short range silhuette.



Here's 4 targets fired several years ago. All used the same powder charge (32.0gr surp WC872) but 3 different ways. Stripped from the mag and fired, Lee factory crimp, or simply with the muzzle elevated before firing. The slugs were visually inspected, powder charges were thrown.

Two 5 shot groups with one at .720" and the other at .683" and a 3rd that had 4 rounds into just shy of a half inch. These were fired at 50 yards over issue sights.

Rick
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Edited by - Buckshot on 04/30/2007 04:33:18 AM



Dutchman
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 06:51:36 AM
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Thank you for stopping by with this information. I've kept the link and added it to my listings of pertinent postings on various subjects.

I've not had good results with cast bullets in the Swedes. I'm buying Lyman 140gr from Wayne Doudna so far and kept loads down. Just isn't happening. I get excellent results with 7.62x54R and 7.65x53 Mauser so far but not 6.5x55.

I usually read your forum once every couple months but I'm behind lately. Thanks again for the info and feel free to share any cast bullet data on 6.5x55, 8x58RD, 12,7x44R.

Dutchman
 
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