http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=189022
Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 10/16/2006 : 11:04:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Almost four years ago I got into a group buy of a big 170-grain custom 6.5 mm mould order with Lee Precision. It took about four months before the moulds were delivered -- and then it took me another four YEARS to really play around with it.
Here is the drawing that Lee worked from:
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/2006101695359_prints-a.jpg
Download Attachment:
62.91 KB
Originally designed for wheel weights, my bullets are cast from an alloy of one part tin to 16 parts lead (1:16), and weigh right in at about 169.5 grains.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/2006101695632_cast-Swede-bullet-75.jpg
Download Attachment:
57.06 KB
At the same time the moulds were ordered, custom sizing dies were also made available. I ordered one that sizes my bullets to a diameter between .267" and .268" -- the gas check is seated in the same operation, and the bullet is lubed with a commercial Alox/beeswax mix. I then seat them "long" for loading and shooting singly, without using the rifle's magazine. The bullets are seated just over the second driving band, resulting in an overall cartridge length of about 3.05 inches.
I tried several loads with these bullets, but the best one -- by far -- was 16.5 grains of Accurate's XMP-5744. I haven't chronographed this load yet, but estimate it at about 1,500 fps.
This five-shot group was fired off the bench at 100 yards from my beautiful 1900 Oberndorf long rifle using open iron sights with the rear sight set at about 425 meters using a Västerås insert for elevation adjustment:
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/20061016105012_Swede-rcvr-top-75.jpg
Download Attachment:
52.04 KB
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/20061016105556_Swede-rcvr-left-75.jpg
Download Attachment:
53.02 KB
Loaded per above using Lapua brass and Winchester Large Pistol primers.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/20061016101733_target-10-03-06-d-75.jpg
Download Attachment:
51.35 KB
As best as I can measure this group, center-to-center, it seems to be about .766 inches. I've never been able to shoot a group under an inch before using a vintage military rifle with open iron sights, using jacketed or cast bullets. Needless to say, I'm a very happy guy.
The holes in the target may indicate that the long bullets were not quite stabilized -- but that didn't seem to matter.
For those of you who might be interested, I believe that these moulds are still available through MidSouth Shooter's Supply (under Special Order Moulds -- their part number 006-6.5SWED ).
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/
I would be interested in learning whether any of you are having similar luck with this bullet.
Thanks.
Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com
JK
Posted - 10/16/2006 : 10:00:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bravo Tom, Looks like you found a winning combination.
Do you get much lead buildup in the barrel?
Also, the mold is on backorder, and so is my order.
Very nice shooting as well !
Dutchman
Posted - 10/17/2006 : 8:35:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you, Tom, for a very thorough report. I want to keep it as a sticky for future reference.
HikerLT
Posted - 11/05/2006 : 12:59:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was also in a group buy several years ago - and have a question.
If I recall correctly, the first mold produced was incorrect, and Lee then produced another run and shipped out a 2nd, correct mold. I forget the exact details as to why the first one was bad - anyone remember ?
My problem is that I have the 2 molds, and can't remember which is which. Any advice on telling the good one from the bad one ?
***************
update 1/6/07
Tom sent me one of his bullets from his mould - and in comparing it to the moulds I have , there is a difference.
The Swede mould group buy I was in, produced a mould with a pointed bullet.
here is a pic showing the 2 moulds ( one is the first run mould, which turned out to be bad in that the bullet produced would not chamber into a swede mauser, the other mould is the 2nd run correct one - and also shown is the bullet from Tom's mould)
I believe the group buy for these moulds was on the "old" Tuco's forum, which was probably more than 5 years ago at least.
Any info from someone who also participated in that group mould buy is appreciated.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/hikerlt/20071622810_swede_1.JPG
Download Attachment:
100.52 KB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - HikerLT on 01/06/2007 10:08:37 PM
milkman-06
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 11:43:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom,
Thank you for the encouraging news on these real bullets. Have you tried pushing it closer to 2000fps? If so ,when does the accuracy
start dropping? I will order that small cruise missle mould later this month. Thank you as well as the designer.
Russ N
Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 3:58:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Russ.
When I was working up loads for this bullet, there wasn't anything to go on in any of the usual manuals -- none of them had a 6.5 m/m cast bullet this heavy.
I had a couple of good loads from an older shooting friend, but they used a lighter SAECO bullet. I got out my calculator and attempted to scale his loads to suit my heavier bullet.
The resulting load using 2400 produced poor results, but the 16.5 grain 5744 load proved to be a winner. When I saw the group, I decided to stop working up any more loads.
I would be hesitant to push a bullet cast from this alloy as fast as 2,000 fps -- even with a gas check. I'm afraid it would lead up the bore. Perhaps one made from linotype, but I am only a paper-puncher, not a hunter -- so I'm not going to try any other loads with this bullet. I may give it a try in my M95 Dutch Mannlicher long rifle, and will chrono it one of these days in my Swede and post the results here.
Good luck with yours. Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com
milkman-06
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 9:58:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom,
Thanks for the extra info. I have read many places that pushing Karlina and her sisters get poorer results, than a 1500-1800 fps loads. This particular mold looks like it should engrave the rifling and should be large enough to fill the throat-giving support to the lead spinner before the big light at the back deforms said projectile??(hopefully). I also shoot the wily squares and rectangles and do my best to make them (w)holy.
good shooting
Russ N
Dandy2fingers
Posted - 11/26/2006 : 09:41:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom,
What sizing equipment do you use? Where did you get the custom sizing dies and gas checks > .266? Let me know when you get a chance....
Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 11/26/2006 : 11:54:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use an RCBS sizing press, and got the custom sizing die as part of the original mould order.
A good source of custom sizing dies is S & S Firearms. I have a bunch of custom sizing dies made up by them, and am very happy with them -- not expensive, either.
http://www.ssfirearms.com/index.html
I'm just using standard Hornady 6.5 m/m gaschecks (that's apparently what this mould was designed for).
Good luck! Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com
Johnny B
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 11:37:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom,
I recently decided to try using the load that you posted with the Lee Precision Custom 170gr. bullet. I just located a '96 Swedish Mauser that I had buried among some of my other militaries. I used your data; a large pistol standard primer and 16.5 grains of XMP-5744. Accuracy was excellent, although not quite as good as yours. The average of ten chronograph readings was 1,643 Ft./Sec. I did not compute standard deviation. I plan to do some more developmental work on this load. Brass was neck sized. I'll keep you posted. I worked up a few loads myself with other powders and another bullet (Lyman #266469) and will report on them very soon. I've got to get a Vasteras insert myself. I'm on the lookout for one.
Johnny B
Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 08:30:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, Johnny B,
Thanks for the chrono info. I'm waiting for a new chrono to arrive -- I killed my old one last week with a stray wad from some Snider loads I was shooting This time I'm getting a shield to go with it.
I have a couple of experienced shooting friends who have had very good luck with the Lyman 266469 bullet. Their best load has been 17.0 grains of IMR-4895. I'll be interested to hear about your loads with this bullet.
Have you thought about joining the Cast Bullet Association -- there is a wealth of information available there, and they sponsor a fun postal match program that has 20+ different matches over the course of each year.
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/
Also, contact me off list -- I may have a lead on a source for a Västerås rear sight for you.
[email protected]
looseprojectile
Posted - 01/19/2007 : 11:22:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom;
I just ordered the mold, gas chechs and sizing die from Midsouth this morning.
Question. Do you think it is important to size larger than .266? My rifles all are very close to .264 groove. That is what Midsouth had and I can always polish the sizing die out a thou. or two if need be later.
I want to thank you for shareing this information as I have four 6.5X55 rifles to feed.
I have a good quantity of linotype metal to make tough long bullets.
Happy shooting
Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 01/19/2007 : 1:04:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My suggestion would be to go ahead and see how the .266" bullets shoot in your rifles. Depending on the velocity you intend to shoot at, you may want to consider a softer alloy than lino -- so that the bullet will better be able to bump up and fill the grooves.
If you still don't see the kind of accuracy you want, you can try opening up your sizing die.
An alternative would be to hand lube a few of your unsized bullets and see how they shoot -- that will give you an indication of whether or not bullets larger than .266" will shoot better in your rifles.
Good luck, and let us know how you make out.
Best, Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com
Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 10/16/2006 : 11:04:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Almost four years ago I got into a group buy of a big 170-grain custom 6.5 mm mould order with Lee Precision. It took about four months before the moulds were delivered -- and then it took me another four YEARS to really play around with it.
Here is the drawing that Lee worked from:
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/2006101695359_prints-a.jpg
Download Attachment:
62.91 KB
Originally designed for wheel weights, my bullets are cast from an alloy of one part tin to 16 parts lead (1:16), and weigh right in at about 169.5 grains.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/2006101695632_cast-Swede-bullet-75.jpg
Download Attachment:
57.06 KB
At the same time the moulds were ordered, custom sizing dies were also made available. I ordered one that sizes my bullets to a diameter between .267" and .268" -- the gas check is seated in the same operation, and the bullet is lubed with a commercial Alox/beeswax mix. I then seat them "long" for loading and shooting singly, without using the rifle's magazine. The bullets are seated just over the second driving band, resulting in an overall cartridge length of about 3.05 inches.
I tried several loads with these bullets, but the best one -- by far -- was 16.5 grains of Accurate's XMP-5744. I haven't chronographed this load yet, but estimate it at about 1,500 fps.
This five-shot group was fired off the bench at 100 yards from my beautiful 1900 Oberndorf long rifle using open iron sights with the rear sight set at about 425 meters using a Västerås insert for elevation adjustment:
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/20061016105012_Swede-rcvr-top-75.jpg
Download Attachment:
52.04 KB
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/20061016105556_Swede-rcvr-left-75.jpg
Download Attachment:
53.02 KB
Loaded per above using Lapua brass and Winchester Large Pistol primers.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Tom in Pittsburgh/20061016101733_target-10-03-06-d-75.jpg
Download Attachment:
51.35 KB
As best as I can measure this group, center-to-center, it seems to be about .766 inches. I've never been able to shoot a group under an inch before using a vintage military rifle with open iron sights, using jacketed or cast bullets. Needless to say, I'm a very happy guy.
The holes in the target may indicate that the long bullets were not quite stabilized -- but that didn't seem to matter.
For those of you who might be interested, I believe that these moulds are still available through MidSouth Shooter's Supply (under Special Order Moulds -- their part number 006-6.5SWED ).
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/
I would be interested in learning whether any of you are having similar luck with this bullet.
Thanks.
Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com
JK
Posted - 10/16/2006 : 10:00:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bravo Tom, Looks like you found a winning combination.
Do you get much lead buildup in the barrel?
Also, the mold is on backorder, and so is my order.
Very nice shooting as well !
Dutchman
Posted - 10/17/2006 : 8:35:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you, Tom, for a very thorough report. I want to keep it as a sticky for future reference.
HikerLT
Posted - 11/05/2006 : 12:59:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was also in a group buy several years ago - and have a question.
If I recall correctly, the first mold produced was incorrect, and Lee then produced another run and shipped out a 2nd, correct mold. I forget the exact details as to why the first one was bad - anyone remember ?
My problem is that I have the 2 molds, and can't remember which is which. Any advice on telling the good one from the bad one ?
***************
update 1/6/07
Tom sent me one of his bullets from his mould - and in comparing it to the moulds I have , there is a difference.
The Swede mould group buy I was in, produced a mould with a pointed bullet.
here is a pic showing the 2 moulds ( one is the first run mould, which turned out to be bad in that the bullet produced would not chamber into a swede mauser, the other mould is the 2nd run correct one - and also shown is the bullet from Tom's mould)
I believe the group buy for these moulds was on the "old" Tuco's forum, which was probably more than 5 years ago at least.
Any info from someone who also participated in that group mould buy is appreciated.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/hikerlt/20071622810_swede_1.JPG
Download Attachment:
100.52 KB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - HikerLT on 01/06/2007 10:08:37 PM
milkman-06
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 11:43:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom,
Thank you for the encouraging news on these real bullets. Have you tried pushing it closer to 2000fps? If so ,when does the accuracy
start dropping? I will order that small cruise missle mould later this month. Thank you as well as the designer.
Russ N
Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 3:58:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Russ.
When I was working up loads for this bullet, there wasn't anything to go on in any of the usual manuals -- none of them had a 6.5 m/m cast bullet this heavy.
I had a couple of good loads from an older shooting friend, but they used a lighter SAECO bullet. I got out my calculator and attempted to scale his loads to suit my heavier bullet.
The resulting load using 2400 produced poor results, but the 16.5 grain 5744 load proved to be a winner. When I saw the group, I decided to stop working up any more loads.
I would be hesitant to push a bullet cast from this alloy as fast as 2,000 fps -- even with a gas check. I'm afraid it would lead up the bore. Perhaps one made from linotype, but I am only a paper-puncher, not a hunter -- so I'm not going to try any other loads with this bullet. I may give it a try in my M95 Dutch Mannlicher long rifle, and will chrono it one of these days in my Swede and post the results here.
Good luck with yours. Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com
milkman-06
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 9:58:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom,
Thanks for the extra info. I have read many places that pushing Karlina and her sisters get poorer results, than a 1500-1800 fps loads. This particular mold looks like it should engrave the rifling and should be large enough to fill the throat-giving support to the lead spinner before the big light at the back deforms said projectile??(hopefully). I also shoot the wily squares and rectangles and do my best to make them (w)holy.
good shooting
Russ N
Dandy2fingers
Posted - 11/26/2006 : 09:41:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom,
What sizing equipment do you use? Where did you get the custom sizing dies and gas checks > .266? Let me know when you get a chance....
Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 11/26/2006 : 11:54:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use an RCBS sizing press, and got the custom sizing die as part of the original mould order.
A good source of custom sizing dies is S & S Firearms. I have a bunch of custom sizing dies made up by them, and am very happy with them -- not expensive, either.
http://www.ssfirearms.com/index.html
I'm just using standard Hornady 6.5 m/m gaschecks (that's apparently what this mould was designed for).
Good luck! Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com
Johnny B
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 11:37:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom,
I recently decided to try using the load that you posted with the Lee Precision Custom 170gr. bullet. I just located a '96 Swedish Mauser that I had buried among some of my other militaries. I used your data; a large pistol standard primer and 16.5 grains of XMP-5744. Accuracy was excellent, although not quite as good as yours. The average of ten chronograph readings was 1,643 Ft./Sec. I did not compute standard deviation. I plan to do some more developmental work on this load. Brass was neck sized. I'll keep you posted. I worked up a few loads myself with other powders and another bullet (Lyman #266469) and will report on them very soon. I've got to get a Vasteras insert myself. I'm on the lookout for one.
Johnny B
Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 08:30:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, Johnny B,
Thanks for the chrono info. I'm waiting for a new chrono to arrive -- I killed my old one last week with a stray wad from some Snider loads I was shooting This time I'm getting a shield to go with it.
I have a couple of experienced shooting friends who have had very good luck with the Lyman 266469 bullet. Their best load has been 17.0 grains of IMR-4895. I'll be interested to hear about your loads with this bullet.
Have you thought about joining the Cast Bullet Association -- there is a wealth of information available there, and they sponsor a fun postal match program that has 20+ different matches over the course of each year.
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/
Also, contact me off list -- I may have a lead on a source for a Västerås rear sight for you.
[email protected]
looseprojectile
Posted - 01/19/2007 : 11:22:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom;
I just ordered the mold, gas chechs and sizing die from Midsouth this morning.
Question. Do you think it is important to size larger than .266? My rifles all are very close to .264 groove. That is what Midsouth had and I can always polish the sizing die out a thou. or two if need be later.
I want to thank you for shareing this information as I have four 6.5X55 rifles to feed.
I have a good quantity of linotype metal to make tough long bullets.
Happy shooting
Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 01/19/2007 : 1:04:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My suggestion would be to go ahead and see how the .266" bullets shoot in your rifles. Depending on the velocity you intend to shoot at, you may want to consider a softer alloy than lino -- so that the bullet will better be able to bump up and fill the grooves.
If you still don't see the kind of accuracy you want, you can try opening up your sizing die.
An alternative would be to hand lube a few of your unsized bullets and see how they shoot -- that will give you an indication of whether or not bullets larger than .266" will shoot better in your rifles.
Good luck, and let us know how you make out.
Best, Tom
www.vintage-gunlore.com
. Both are seated to engrave. On the left is a 132gr Loverin from a custom 6 cavity mould. The one on the right is available (mould, not bullets) from MidSouth. It's a 172gr slug that was designed by a member of:
