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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Marzon
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 2:36:46 PM
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I recently acquired a nice Swedish Rolling block in 8x58R Danish Krag. I would like to shoot it and found out that Buffalo Arms has ammo in this caliber but they have two different varietys, one for rifles with .060 headspace and one for rifles with .070 headspace. I don't have any headspace gauges and I would bet that a set for this rather uncommon caliber would be pretty expensive, especially for a gun that I am not likely to shoot often. So I guess my question is, which ammo would be more likely correct for this rifle and how bad do you think the consequences would be if I get the wrong one? I have read alot of different opinions on these boards of the consequences of bad headspace, from no worries to immediate death. What do you experts think? Thanks.

Dutchman
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 3:47:38 PM
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This is the first I've heard of this so I went to www.buffaloarms.com website and checked. Yep, two different headspace cartridges.

An original Danish cartridge in my collection has a .058" rim thickness. The Norma m/89 8x58R cartridge is .056". In both these instances the ammo they have for .060" headspace would be correct.

NOTE -- Buffalo Arms advertises this ammo for DANISH KRAG rifles.
Do NOT buy it until they have certified it for use in the
Swedish rolling block rifles.

I'll do a little more perusing this afternoon on this issue. Thanks for bringing it up


Marzon
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 10:42:25 AM
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Have you found anything out yet?


Dutchman
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 1:44:51 PM
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No, nothing.

You need to contact Buffalo Arms yourself and inquire as to suitability of their ammo for rolling blocks.


Marzon
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 11:06:17 AM
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I am going to try and call Buffalo arms today. Is the headspace measurement for these rifles supposed to be the same as the rim thickness? I think I could figure out a way to measure that like JBMauser suggests.


Dutchman
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 1:19:58 PM
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The issue is _not_ measuring headspace.

The issue is whether the ammo offered by Buffalo Arms is SAFE for rolling block rifles.


Marzon
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 5:02:34 PM
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I talked to the guy at Buffalo Arms. The product notes in his system stated that the reason they offer both types is because they have observed "wide variations of headspace in rifles of this caliber. Check your rifle's headspace before ordering" It did not mention anything specific about Rolling Blocks or Krags. He said though that all of their obsolete ammo is loaded down to low pressures and is basically the equivalent of light handloads and he was of the opinion that if the gun was in good condition and the headspace was correct it should be safe in a rolling block. Of course he added all the usual caveats about not being legally responsible, etc.


Dutchman
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 5:32:28 PM
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Originally posted by Marzon:

I talked to the guy at Buffalo Arms. The product notes in his system stated that the reason they offer both types is because they have observed "wide variations of headspace in rifles of this caliber. Check your rifle's headspace before ordering" It did not mention anything specific about Rolling Blocks or Krags. He said though that all of their obsolete ammo is loaded down to low pressures and is basically the equivalent of light handloads and he was of the opinion that if the gun was in good condition and the headspace was correct it should be safe in a rolling block. Of course he added all the usual caveats about not being legally responsible, etc.
Sorry, but my caution stands. Talking with some unnamed guy who says there is no mention of rolling blocks or Krags is obviously ignorant as the website information below shows specific mention of ~Danish Krag rifles~. It says "THESE RIFLES WILL VARY FOR HEADSPACE". What rifles is it talking about? Danish Krag rifles. There's no mention of Swedish rolling blocks because this ammo was NOT loaded for Swedish rolling blocks so the caution about headspace is irrelevant to Swedish rolling block rifles. I can see I need to take some further action on this issue for the sake of those who may order this ammo for rolling blocks....

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4105.htm
This is currently loaded obsolete ammunition for 8x58R Danish Krag rifles with .060" headspace. CHECK YOUR HEAD SPACE DO NOT GUESS! THESE RIFLES WILL VARY FOR HEADSPACE! Usually .060" or .070" so we offer the ammo and brass both ways. Loaded with our reformed cases (#8x58RDanish) and a 150 grain .323" diameter bullet (#Hob3232). We can load these with properly head stamped cases (#8x58Rdanbert) at an additional $20 per box.



Marzon
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 6:39:38 PM
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I was not discounting your caution. I was simply forwarding what the guy told me. I was aware that he really had no new information and basically consider myself back at square one. I suppose I could have made that clearer.

I am simply trying find out if I can find any ammo that is ok to shoot in this gun. That is why I came on this board in the first place. I figured if anybody could answer the question with authority it would be one of the contributors to this board. There are lots of very nice Swedish Rolling Blocks around right now in 8x58R and I figured I couldn't be the only one with a desire to shoot mine.

I have read your follow on posting titled "Headspace mini-rant". If there are no headspace guages available for this caliber in the U.S. then one wonders how somebody could check the headspace even if they were buying the Buffalo Arms ammo for a Danish Krag.


Dutchman
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 7:10:15 PM
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Marzon

I appreciate you clarification. And I appreciate that you understand what the issue is. The ammo in question ~may~ be ok. I just don't like the ~may~ part of that.

There is no way you can check headspace in the 8x58R rolling block. If the breechblock is tight with no forward/backward motion with the hammer down its ~probably~ ok. Again.. I don't like the ~probably~ part. Correct gauges remove the ~probably~.


MP78
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 8:17:09 PM
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Dutchman,

I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on this topic. Even if the headspace on the cartridge is correct to the rifle "have the combination of componants i.e. primer, brass, powder and projectiles been tested to be safe in the Rolling Block type action?" The ammo maker says it's been tested in Danish Krags but there isn't any reference to Swedish Rolling Blocks. I'm with Dutchman also in that it would be nice to see a tech. paper covering this before shooting this ammo in one... Jim


brucers99
Posted - 01/05/2007 : 8:22:52 PM
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Any new thoughts on this? I'm not a reloader, and I just bought a rolling block in 8x58RD to use in primative weapons season here in Mississippi. I, too, have no headspace gauge for these and need some commercially loaded ammo or a reliable source for reloaded ammo (which I would be willing to pay out the kazoo for). So, any new opinions on this?

Thanks, Reid


Dutchman
Posted - 01/05/2007 : 10:52:24 PM
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There are no new thoughts on the issue of Buffalo Arms (Idaho) ammo for the Danish Krag being safe in the Swedish rolling block. The caution still stands: do not shoot that ammo in your rolling block as it was not loaded for your rolling block. Words like "probably safe" or "may be safe" are not good enough as far as this forum is concerned. We will therefore continue advising this ammunition NOT be fired in Swedish rolling blocks.

Any gunsmith who says he has checked your rifle's headspace DEMAND to see the headspace gauges. If he cannot produce them in front of you then you have a lying thieving crook in front of you.

Apparently there are some/a few/many of you who are not handloaders and have no real experience with antique firearms. If you put the wrong ammo in the chamber and pull the trigger YOU CAN DIE when the receiver fragments just like a grenade. Do you know the groove diameter of your rifle? Do you know the bullet diameter of the ammo you're putting in your rifle? Do you know the chamber pressure of the ammo you put in your rifle? Most of us, even experienced handloaders, can only guesstimate "low pressure" "medium pressure" and "high pressure". Recoil is not an acceptable method of guesstimating chamber pressure. There is _no_ reliable method of guesstimating chamber pressure. Shooting antique rifles is risky!!!

There is no commercially available ammunition for the 8x58R Danish to shoot in the Swedish rolling blocks. It must be handloaded.

This forum will _not_ be used to diseminate information that so-in-so shot such-in-such ammo and it was fine. This forum will not be used to suggest shooting patently incorrect ammunition in your rifle. Anyone who tries telling you that shooting incorrect ammunition in your firearm is ok is not going to take care of your family when you're dead or severely injured after shooting some incorrect ammunition in your rifle. Don't do it. Some things in life you have to accept whether you like it or not. This is one of those times.


brucers99
Posted - 01/05/2007 : 11:18:51 PM
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Dutchman, thank you for warning. Yes, this is the first antique rifle that I have ever purchased (mainly because of the change in our hunting laws allowing the use of antique weapons). So, where does this leave someone like me...do I have an expensive wall hanger or is there a way to obtain ammunition for this gun from some other source. As I said earlier, I would be more than happy to pay someone very well to handload ammunition which would work for this weapon. Any ideas?


Dutchman
Posted - 01/06/2007 : 12:24:58 AM
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I guess you skipped over this part:

"There is no commercially available ammunition for the 8x58R Danish to shoot in the Swedish rolling blocks. It must be handloaded."

In the U.S. selling handloaded ammunition requires a license as a "manufacturer" of ammunition. Please do not solicite anyone to load ammunition for you. Its against the law. Read that again---- Its against the law to manufacture ammunition for sale without a federal firearms license as a manufacturer.

My best idea is to load your own ammunition. There is no commercially available ammunition for the 8x58R Danish for use in the Swedish rolling block rifles.


brucers99
Posted - 01/06/2007 : 12:50:30 AM
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Hmm, crud. Didn't realize it was illegal. Thanks for the help Dutchman.
 
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