[LVSteve]

We do not seem to have a sticky for Carcano production numbers or the rarity of different variants. I did a search on the forum and could not find a definitive thread, either. Even the site at stevens.edu is silent on the subject. Anybody know of a resource that lays it out for us? For example, I am due to pick up a 91/38 TS this week and I have no idea if they are more or less common that the short rifles or cavalry carbines and if a particular factory is more collectible than another.

 

[762x54]

Try this if you haven't already. Bill
http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=7911

 

[Arditi]

The upcoming Carcano Book will cover all of that.

 

[Franzmaximilian]

I'm no expert on rifles' market, but I'd guess that production numbers are not necessarily the only factor to consider when evaluating the relative rarity. For a rifle that has seen operative use in many different wars, history itself contributes to availability on the market. Also, one should consider that many have been modified at arsenals. I have no numbers at hand, but I can imagine that a Mod. 91 Fucile Lungo is much more difficult to find in good conditions than a 91/41, though the latter has been produced in smaller numbers.
My two cents

 

[LVSteve]

Try this if you haven't already. Bill
http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=7911

Excellent resource, thank you.

Franzmaximilian, you are quite correct, but up until now I had not been able to determine even production numbers.

I look forward to the new book with interest.

 

[john fiorentino]

I am new here and need some info. re: the WCC 6.5mm ammo used in the JFK case.

This message posted below by "Doc AV" indicates WCC produced this ammo late 40's, however info. I have is it was produced in 1954 and there were only 4 lots ever made. Lot #'s 6000-6003 The round has red sealant around the primer.

I'm trying to verify the info. in the post by Doc AV. I tried a private msg. but no response.

Thanks in advance.


The US had this stuff made up by WCC in the late 1940s for a mixture of Greek and Albanian (irregular) forces fighting against Communists on the Greek-Albanian Border, and for use within Albania itself.At the time, there was a Civil war in Greece, and the Greek Communists were using the (Already Communist) Albania as a Safe haven and resupply point. There were ample Carcano rifles available through-out the Balkan Area from WW II Italian stores and captures by various Greek and Albanian Partizan Bands, especially after the 1943 Italian surrender (whole Italian Units went over to the Locals, with Equipment, for 1943-45).

By the time the ammo was ready, the Greek Civil War was winding down,the Royal Hellenic Army having been massively supported by the British with scads of .303 Ammo and weapons; Albania was still an "area of Interest" to the CIA, (as now known) and some 6,5 ammo was directed there, to friendly anti-communist groups (via air and sea-drop from Italy and Greece; however, the Anti-Coms were soon neutralised, and CIA activity in Albania decreased to "listening Post" only. Any excess WCC 6,5 ammo went to the Milsurp market in the mid to late 1950s.
Aside from its "Kennedy" connection, its claim to fame is that outside of Norma Commercial ammo (and Now "PrviPartizan") it was the ONLY Military Boxer primed version of 6,5 Carcano ammo ever made; and the only 6,5 Carcano ammo ever made in the USA; and besides the WW I USCC 6,5x53R Dutch/Roumanian Contract of 1916-7, the only other 6,5 mm Military ammo ever made in the USA. So it has "Collectability", especially sealed Boxes. In keeping with WCC/WRA practice for Foreign Military contracts of the 1930s-1950s, the cartridge Headstamp has NO date, just manufacturer and calibre.

Regards, Doc AV

 

[storkman]

You can take anything Doc has to say about arms and ammunition directly to the bank.

 

[john fiorentino]

6.5mm WCC ammo info. needed

6.5mm WCC ammo info. needed

Thanks, but I would be very grateful if I could discuss some of this in more detail. Specifically, what DOC AV posted, as I have differing info. from a reliable source. If anyone wishes they can send to my personal e-mail [email protected]

Thanks in advance

 

[GUNBB]

Sounds like you are looking for a specific answer and DOC AV's isn't it !! I have 2 boxes of the stuff and what he said is true but since you don't like his answer, I say believe what you like and move on. Just MHO, BB

 

[Arditi]

Sorry for the rude answer from some of us John. Keep looking for what you need information wise; there is not a person on this board that is the end all and be all on information on this stuff. I've seen many so called "experts" put out baloney quite frequently. Thank you for your inquisitive mind.
Russ

 

[GUNBB]

Sounds like you got issues with DOC AV , ARDITI !! DOC AV's answer makes sense. The ammo was for nationalists that were done by 1950. All the Balkans were in Commie hands. So then why would WCC make 6.5 Carcano for The US Govenment for anyone ?? I got my Ammo from the guy who got it from Kleins , in the 1960's . I believe it was my thread that was quoted , in which I asked about the Ammo. Who is the secret guy with the secret info that contradicts DOC AV ?? Or is it just argueing for the sake of argueing ?? Just MHO, BB

 

[5thDragoons]

doc Av hasn't the final word on many topics here. Also, please keep in mind tact is never out of style. SW

 

[GUNBB]

OK, I'm "RUDE" -ARDITI and have no "TACT" - 5th Dragoons, and you two guys wrote the book on Carcanos, YET>>>>>>> DOC AV is the only one who has proffered any info on the cartridges . So if you two experts know anything, now's the time to speak up and stop the name calling !!! This is supposed to be an information site and dismissing someones opinion without offering an alternate seems to be ............. well an issue with the person, not the topic. Just MHO, RUDE TACTLESS BB

 

[03man]

6.5mm WCC ammo info. needed

Thanks, but I would be very grateful if I could discuss some of this in more detail. Specifically, what DOC AV posted, as I have differing info. from a reliable source. If anyone wishes they can send to my personal e-mail [email protected]

Thanks in advance

Why not post your info here and get it vetted; no need to be secret about the data or the source.

Share and share alike; BB can't even find fault with that!

 

[Arditi]

Not trying to call you names GUNBB. I thought you were being a bit rough in your post to Mr. Fiorentino. He asked some interesting questions. Mr. Fiorentino, Don (03Man) had an interesting suggestion.
In Friendly Scholarship, Russ(Arditi)

 

[ireload2]

The Warren commission and the HSCA following investigations of the Kennedy assassination provided testimony under oath by Western Cartridge personnel that the ammo in question was produced about 1954. I have a box of this ammo and the headstamp marking appears to have made with the same die as the Oswald brass. I suppose any doubters could easily send Winchester ammunition an email and ask the question directly.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid7.htm

http://jpfo.org/tta/tta-7-22-10-comment.htm

Much of the testimony is available on the net so you do not have to depend on 3rd or 4th parties for review of the information.

 

[GUNBB]

That's all I asked for, some kind of alternate info that made some sense.I have 2 boxes of this ,unopened, and was ,I believe the person who asked about it awhile back and was responded to ,by DOC AV .It just seems very strange that an American company would produce a cartridge in such a limited amount, in an obviously Military Box,[not for sale as commercial ammo]. DOC AV's answer makes sense and I also believe the Warren Report , so we have 2 different , logical opinions on the origin and use of the ammo. If I'm going to stand up in front of my collector club with my Carcano's,[including the Albanian nationlalist one], along with the Ammo, I'd like to be giving reliable info.Too bad it had to go this far, BB

 

[GUNBB]

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?206100-6-5-Italian-from-WCC&highlight=6.5+carcano+ammo

Here is my original Post from Jan 2011. BB

 

[john fiorentino]

I don't think you were *exceptionally* rude. I'm on several newsgroups where people ask questions just to ask, so I understand. However, I am a legitimate researcher and this question is very important to my investigation.

The date 1954 is my understanding, allegedly, the ONLY lots ever produced were 6000, 6001, 6002, 6003 for a total of approx. 2 1/2 million rounds.

This gets rather involved and I've found several contradictory statements. ............

For instance the Warren Report indicated WCC was "currently" that is 1964 making the WCC 6.5mm ammo. That as far as I know is not correct.

The Warren Report also contained an interview with a WCC official who indicated that WCC made the ammo during the 2nd World War, or slightly after, around the late 40's.

I have more info. I will post, I just don't have it in front of me now.

So, a quick way would be to ask anyone with any of that ammo in boxes which are NOT from lots 6000-6003 to respond.

more later..........and thanks!

 

[GUNBB]

There are answers and there are answers that make sense. DOC AV's Makes sense . The ammo was produced in the '40,s and early '50,s, for use overseas in Greece and Albania. The left overs were surplused out in the late '50,s early 60's . I'm not interested in coulda, shoulda woulda . I'm done , BB