[barnetmill]

Science is so oriented that there is more research on Europeans than any other human group.
The first modern peoples of Europe may have had dark skin and blue eyes. Cheddar man from about 10,000 years found in Somerset. Cheddar Man's remains had been unearthed 115 years ago in Gough's Cave, located in Somerset's Cheddar Gorge. DNA analysis allows them to predict skin and eye pigmentation. Pictures are artistic representations.

It is believed immigrants came from perhaps the middle east that brought in farming and lighter skin and then later Indo-Europeans speakers brought in a genetic mutation that allows people to drink milk and as adults to digest the milk sugar lactose. There are claims also that brain size got smaller too.
Scientists have done a lot of work on this lactose gene mutation.

What they are finding is the European mutated gene say 10,000 yr ago was not present, but 'Lactase persistence is a common genetic trait in Europeans and other pastoralists. New ancient DNA evidence from a Bronze Age battlefield indicates that selection for lactase persistence was strong and on-going in the last 3,000 years.'

In Europe this gene is most common in the Nordic areas of Europe.
While 65% or more of the total human population are lactose intolerant, in some human populations lactase activity commonly persists into adulthood. Lactose tolerance is exceptionally widespread in Northern European countries such as Sweden and Finland, with tolerance levels of 74% and 82%, respectively.

Below is a map that shows that lactose intolerance decrease in the nordic area of europe. In england it is very low. What is now the UK and also Ireland were hit by two huge waves of Indo-European speaking peoples. first the celts and then various Germanic tribes such and Saxons and then Vikings that all may have carried the mutated gene. Allowing milk to be consumed by adults gives a very strong selection for people with this gene and so they survive to procreate this gene.

 

[Lyman1903]

science or not, regarding skin tone , eyes etc, it is known that humans moved around quite more than expected back in the day,

and that pic, the woman on the right, (gender assumed,, sorry) looks a bit like the disfigured woman on Star Trek's Menagerie episode that Pike was happy to see

 

[Tempest2]

I read a good book about that guy by a very knowledgeable amateur anthropologist who lives in that part of the Alps. It was largely a deep-dive to determine where he came from, and the "Occam's Razor" answer that raises the least additional questions is, one of the neolithic communities on the "Italian" side of the Alps, which were a straight-shot down the 20-mile long (or so) valley he climbed up to reach his final resting place.

The author engaged in informed speculation on why he was there, citing a lot of clues that suggest he may have been fleeing a raid on a settlement by a competing group, who among other things chased the Iceman up the mountain and caused his death.

The picture painted is that Hobbes was right - life was a war of all-against-all when life was "poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (but not "solitary"). At least in pre-civilization neolithic times, when an ever-increasing share of the calories people consumed were grown by the people themselves. Americans have a model of that stage from our own history - the Indians who lived in the Northeast before Englishmen settled Jamestown and Plymouth.

A book about that period by the good American historian Bernard Bailyn ("The Barbarous Years") opens with a chapter painting a realistic picture of those Indians, who indeed lived in a never-ending war of all-against-all at the tribal and 'town" level. I had not thought about it before, but the Iceman's people and neighbors were at precisely that state of development, reinforcing the speculation of the other author cited here about what/who killed the Iceman. (Bailyn suggests that if an individual Indian of that time and place did not himself die in such conflicts, the odds were that many of the previous or next generation in the community would do so. IOW, it was constant.)

 

[GUNBB]

I don't think we will ever see the answer ,in our lifetime. However, we have seen more info, which is what this is. I read there were 3 species of primate, Chimpanzee's, Apes and Orangutan's . The Apes stayed in Africa, The Chimps went to Asia and The Orangutan's went north . I think Northern Europeans are lighter skinned because they were wearing clothes almost all the time , so they never developed a dark pigment like southern Italy and North Africa. Outside of that, I don't know and while it's an interesting subject, I really don't care one way or the other.

 

[barnetmill]

Otzi the Iceman, the Neolithic man whose well preserved body was found in the Italian Alps in 1991 was Caucasian. It was determined he lived 5300 years ago and I don't think heavily pigmented populations would lighten that quickly. Not only is there good money in 'Racism', there's good money in 'Race'.

Otzi was not a hunter gather and died after agriculture was introduced into europe. There is difference between 10,000 years ago and 5,000 years ago relative to populations. hunter gather diets are not as often deficient in Vit D and that is reason that these early europeans did not need white skin. Light skin accelerates skin cancer rate, but allows better absorption of solar radiation that results in the production Vit D.
The presence of einkorn wheat in Otzi's suggests agriculture, but it did grow wild in some areas. It did not grow wild in italy is what I am reading.
Einkorn wheat commonly grows wild in the hill country in the northern part of the Fertile Crescent and Anatolia although it has a wider distribution reaching into the Balkans and south to Jordan near the Dead Sea. It is a short variety of wild wheat, usually less than 70 centimetres (28 in) tall and is not very productive of edible seeds.

And now, after putting the stomach contents through a battery of tests, the researchers determined the ice mummy's final meal: dried ibex meat and fat, red deer, einkorn wheat, and traces of toxic fern
Einkorn wheat was one of the first plants to be domesticated and cultivated. The earliest clear evidence of the domestication of einkorn dates from 10,600 to 9,900 years before present (8650 BCE to 7950 BCE) from Çayönü and Cafer Höyük, two Early Pre-Pottery Neolithic B archaeological sites in southern Turkey.[2] Remnants of einkorn were found with the iceman mummy Ötzi, dated to 3100 BCE.[3]

 

[Sapper740]

I read a good book about that guy by a very knowledgeable amateur anthropologist who lives in that part of the Alps. It was largely a deep-dive to determine where he came from, and the "Occam's Razor" answer that raises the least additional questions is, one of the neolithic communities on the "Italian" side of the Alps, which were a straight-shot down the 20-mile long (or so) valley he climbed up to reach his final resting place.

The author engaged in informed speculation on why he was there, citing a lot of clues that suggest he may have been fleeing a raid on a settlement by a competing group, who among other things chased the Iceman up the mountain and caused his death.

The picture painted is that Hobbes was right - life was a war of all-against-all when life was "poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (but not "solitary"). At least in pre-civilization neolithic times, when an ever-increasing share of the calories people consumed were grown by the people themselves. Americans have a model of that stage from our own history - the Indians who lived in the Northeast before Englishmen settled Jamestown and Plymouth.

A book about that period by the good American historian Bernard Bailyn ("The Barbarous Years") opens with a chapter painting a realistic picture of those Indians, who indeed lived in a never-ending war of all-against-all at the tribal and 'town" level. I had not thought about it before, but the Iceman's people and neighbors were at precisely that state of development, reinforcing the speculation of the other author cited here about what/who killed the Iceman. (Bailyn suggests that if an individual Indian of that time and place did not himself die in such conflicts, the odds were that many of the previous or next generation in the community would do so. IOW, it was constant.)

Otzi's body was well preserved due to it being 'wet' mummified instead of the usual dried out and brittle mounds of dust left by 'desert' mummification. His body was so well preserved that they were able to perform an actual autopsy on it and discovered he was killed by another Neolithic person when he was shot in the back with an arrow that pierced a major artery in his thoracic cavity.

 

[barnetmill]

science or not, regarding skin tone , eyes etc, it is known that humans moved around quite more than expected back in the day,

and that pic, the woman on the right, (gender assumed,, sorry) looks a bit like the disfigured woman on Star Trek's Menagerie episode that Pike was happy to see

The title of that artistic interpretation is Cheddar Man
It is England prior to 7,000 yrs ago that there was a land bridge and so there should have been movement of people about. By about 7,000 years ago, the study suggests, Doggerland would have been long gone, completely submerged by rising sea levels. “Ultimately, it was climate change that killed Doggerland,” Gaffney. But the scientists are going on what they have found in the DNA code for skin color. People eventually got white in England as lighter skin farming folk from the Middle east move in is the current explanation for skin color.

 

[barnetmill]

I read a good book about that guy by a very knowledgeable amateur anthropologist who lives in that part of the Alps. It was largely a deep-dive to determine where he came from, and the "Occam's Razor" answer that raises the least additional questions is, one of the neolithic communities on the "Italian" side of the Alps, which were a straight-shot down the 20-mile long (or so) valley he climbed up to reach his final resting place.

The author engaged in informed speculation on why he was there, citing a lot of clues that suggest he may have been fleeing a raid on a settlement by a competing group, who among other things chased the Iceman up the mountain and caused his death.

The picture painted is that Hobbes was right - life was a war of all-against-all when life was "poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (but not "solitary"). At least in pre-civilization neolithic times, when an ever-increasing share of the calories people consumed were grown by the people themselves. Americans have a model of that stage from our own history - the Indians who lived in the Northeast before Englishmen settled Jamestown and Plymouth.

A book about that period by the good American historian Bernard Bailyn ("The Barbarous Years") opens with a chapter painting a realistic picture of those Indians, who indeed lived in a never-ending war of all-against-all at the tribal and 'town" level. I had not thought about it before, but the Iceman's people and neighbors were at precisely that state of development, reinforcing the speculation of the other author cited here about what/who killed the Iceman. (Bailyn suggests that if an individual Indian of that time and place did not himself die in such conflicts, the odds were that many of the previous or next generation in the community would do so. IOW, it was constant.)

Some of this may go in cycles relative to raiding and warfare. Even if things are relatively peaceful, it does not last. The people that came after Otzi's time got a rude shock for those further north at about the end of bronze age when the Indo-Europeans invaded western europe. I did not mention the the warfare part, but these people are thought to have been raiders that warred on horse back. Ancient hill top fortifications are common through out many parts of the world.
The Indo-Europeans that were masters of the horse and milk drinkers are thought to have originated in parts of what is Ukraine and adjacent steppe areas of Europe.
For me I have always been struck bye the mounds that were present in areas from the Mississippi to the Appalachians. I wonder if they ever served as fortifications. That civilization just went away and I wonder why.

 

[Miller Tyme]

What's rule #11?

Attention, New Off Topic Lounge Rules, Please Read...

Due to the rising number of inappropriate posts and foul lanuage the Admins & Moderators of Gunboards have decided that this forum will now be Moderated. TENNESSEEAN and myself will be Moderating this forum going forward for the foreseeable future and as such these are the new rules for the Off...

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[Tempest2]

It's the rule that outlaws my (deleted) snipes related to modern academia and the tint of early Europeans.
Guilty! Whipped-and-cleared.

 

[plonker]

I simply posted "Rule 11" there was no context.
Then it was deleted & I got a nastygram.

 

[shjoe]

interesting polite discussion. although the only rule i remember is "rule 303"

 

[Lyman1903]

The title of that artistic interpretation is Cheddar Man
It is England prior to 7,000 yrs ago that there was a land bridge and so there should have been movement of people about. By about 7,000 years ago, the study suggests, Doggerland would have been long gone, completely submerged by rising sea levels. “Ultimately, it was climate change that killed Doggerland,” Gaffney. But the scientists are going on what they have found in the DNA code for skin color. People eventually got white in England as lighter skin farming folk from the Middle east move in is the current explanation for skin color.

View attachment 3995053

I recall a post here or somewhere concerning Doggerland, would be very interesting to go back in time and take a look around

 

[barnetmill]

I recall a post here or somewhere concerning Doggerland, would be very interesting to go back in time and take a look around

trawling nets first discovered the doggerland banks coming up with various prehistoric items. It was a world that would have been paradise for a Louisiana Cajun. Mazes of lowlands, forest, interconnecting waters, with fishing and hunting that was out of this world.
Sea level was lower and many rivers had canyons that are now far out to sea. Sea level went up about 200 feet as the ice sheets melted.
Ancient canoe likely of the type used in doggerland.

Here is an Australian water craft that was likely used in ancient times.

I have seen craft like this used in the Indian Ocean off of east africa, but they had a little sail on it. They would go out and catch tuna. Not so hard for a shark to knock a man off of such a craft.

 

[barnetmill]

Artist conception of Doggerland, Faces and pigmentation of the people was likely different.

 

[1Nando]

 

[barnetmill]

View attachment 3995226

Hawking was also skilled at doing some BS too. What happened is that we developed technology that was at first slow in accumulating and once we had cities and could grow enough food, some people got to devote more time to developing more technology. We have very good brains, good vision, and communication to point that:

Google:
The Facts About 21st Century Learning
By the middle of the twentieth century, knowledge was doubling every 25 years. As of 2013, human knowledge was doubling every 13 months on average – faster in some industries like nanotechnology research. Now, human knowledge is almost doubling every day[ii].

But we are still apes under it all and maybe not so different from our nearest relatives the chimpanzees. We now have great technological Knowledge, but not the wisdom to properly use it.

 

[tacfoley2]

science or not, regarding skin tone , eyes etc, it is known that humans moved around quite more than expected back in the day,

and that pic, the woman on the right, (gender assumed,, sorry) looks a bit like the disfigured woman on Star Trek's Menagerie episode that Pike was happy to see

Cheddar Man was a man.

 

[tacfoley2]

Artist conception of Doggerland, Faces and pigmentation of the people was likely different.
View attachment 3995133

It looks like Hunstanton on an average day....................... If you lived here, you'd know what I meant.

 

[Valhallarms]

Hmm maybe they mean to say your average English man today..that looks like what I saw alot walking around.