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Rare Type 14 With Original Production Features






Topic author: Rampage19
Subject: Rare Type 14 With Original Production Features
Posted on: 02/12/2006 8:52:14 PM
Message:
Very few Type 14 Nambu pistols with their original and unmodified parts have been reported through collector observations. It is impossible to know how many Type 14s missed the arsenal recall of 1932, but, based on the very few unmodified examples which have been reported, the number is probably very small. However, because most collectors don't easily recognize unmodified guns, it is likely that more examples are just awaiting discovery. The parts modified in the 1932 arsenal recall include: frame (to install the magazine safety block), trigger housing, trigger, bolt, firing pin, locking block, and firing pin extension.

With just three very simple and quick observations, any Japanese militaria collector should be able to identify a possible unmodified example. Type 14s manufactured at Chigusa and Tokyo from production inception until very early 1932 (7-dates) are candidates for observation, as they were all produced with the original features; later guns were all produced with the new features. Once a collector learns the differences, recognizing an unmodified example is easy. (Images of the differences are shown below.)

Here are the steps to easily determine if a gun was modified:
1. Look for the absence of a "B" position inspection mark (left side frame flat near grips). Modified guns were stamped in the B position with the mark of the modifying arsenal. If there is no B position mark, the gun may be original configuration.
2. Look as the right side of the trigger and the trigger guard just behind the trigger. Original trigger back edges carry the trigger curve to the top. Modified triggers have more back edge material to contact the installed magazine safety block extension. Modified trigger guards are machined to accomodate the installed magazine safety block.
3. Look at the underside of the bolt after pulling back on the cocking knob. Original bolts have a very short slot for the firing pin tail (around 1/2"+ or 14mm), while modified bolts have a longer slot (around 1"+ or 27mm). The differences are easy to see.

The following images show an unmodified Tokyo Arsenal example and its original parts along with modified parts to show the differences:

A. Gun right side - if you look hard, you can see the original trigger curve.

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B. Gun left side - no "B" position mark present.

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C. Trigger right side - original on left; modified on right with extra metal to contact magazine safety block extension.

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D. Bolt underside - original on left; modified on right with longer firing pin slot.

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E. Bolt, firing pin, firing pin extension, locking block comparisions - original on left; modified on right.

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F. Magazine safety block installation - original on left; modified on right with block.

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G. Trigger guard machining to accept magazine safety block - original on left without machining; modified on right with machining.

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Please use this information to inspect all Type 14 Chigusa and Tokyo 7-date or earlier examples. If you have or find an unmodified example, please contact me ([email protected]), as I catalog information on these guns. Thank you.

Replies:

Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 02/12/2006 9:00:32 PM
Message:
This is great information. Thanks for sharing and taking the time to put it on this forum. I printed this out and will keep it for reference.

John in Charlotte, NC

Reply author: BIG ED
Replied on: 02/12/2006 9:12:44 PM
Message:
Very informative. I usually don't look at these pistols as I don't know much about the earlier t-14's. I prefer the later guns 19-20 dated.


Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 02/12/2006 10:26:05 PM
Message:



quote: Originally posted by BIG ED

Very informative. I usually don't look at these pistols as I don't know much about the earlier t-14's. I prefer the later guns 19-20 dated.
Then, you're missing out on some beautiful pieces of work. The early T-14 are pieces of art.

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Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 02/13/2006 01:26:18 AM
Message:
I second Dogs' attribution,the early '14s are,to me anyhow,a close cousin to Papa,G'Paw and Baby nambus,in quality and beauty.I'll save this post for future referance,thanks Dan! My recent 7.1 that I shared info w/you was obviously '32 modified. If I may add to your excellent post,a word of caution! Collectors who need to replace a fireing pin in these guns,need to heed these pics.I myself spent a fortune on replacement pins in a 5 date once.I picked up this particular gun w a broken fireing pin(not the tip,the sear catch on back)and ordered one for a princely sum from a dealer,also the later short pin,like in the gun as found.I proceded to shear that on off as well! Thinking it a fluke I payed $40 for another,,,you guess it,sheared that one off too! Then as I examined the gun dissasembled it dawned on me,it was an unmodified(no cut in bolt or sear) gun,that needed the longer early pin.The later short pin was getting sheared off in the early short slot! $100 later I got it right and ordered the 3" pin. Don't do as I did guys and wreck a fortune in pins,they don't grow on trees! Scott








Reply author: Rampage19
Replied on: 02/20/2006 7:45:45 PM
Message:
Scott,


You make an excellent point about ensuring the correct firing pin is in the correct bolt. Almost as imporant, though, is having the correct firing pin spring guide (the back end of which sticks out of the cocking knob). Over the years, three different pin and guide length combinations were used - a total of 119mm, 120mm, and 121mm in length. What is important about the two is that you ensure the total length of the two parts in your gun is about 120mm, give or take 1mm (just about 4-3/4"). If you don't have the correct combination of part lengths, you risk damage to the firing pin. You also may have either not enough or too much pin/primer impact pressure due to incorrect spring compression caused by incorrect parts.

Reply author: Rampage19
Replied on: 05/30/2007 6:03:37 PM
Message:
I'm resurecting this post to answer a question about original production features by "03man" in the current post entitled, "Early Nagoya T14."


Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 05/30/2007 6:34:36 PM
Message:
Thanks Dan,
much clearer; now if I just don't move my head, I may be able to remember the main points!


Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 05/30/2007 7:03:41 PM
Message:
Dan, thanks for posting that info! I had centered my T14 chapter in MPOJ on that subject, preach about it constantly, and am surprised 30 years later to see that so very few people are aware of the original T14 configuration. The original unmodified T14 is the most desirable collectible of that family as far as I'm concerned. At the shows, that's the primary thing I'm looking for in the way of T14's. Great post!


Reply author: Rampage19
Replied on: 05/30/2007 8:10:31 PM
Message:
Fred,


Coming from you, I consider your comment to be the highest compliment. Thank you. I, too, really like the unmodified T14. I have only been fortunate to acquire the one example and am pleased that it is so nice. These examples are quite rare, but, I also think there are more of them out there yet to be identified. As you alluded, most collectors just plain don't know how to identify them. I do think more will be located as collectors learn to notice their features.

Dan

Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 05/30/2007 8:53:47 PM
Message:
A buddy just picked up a 6.1 that needed a pin,the one in it had a broke "leg".He paid big$ for an original,popped it in,annnnd,sheared it off. Yep,unmodified bolt. I got him a repo long pin from Don Schlickman (perfect copy-$25!)and all works well now.I'll tear it down next time I'm over and jot down the particulars for ya Dan.


Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 05/30/2007 10:07:38 PM
Message:
Scott,
just how does the leg shear off? Doesn't seem that weak, but it has happened to you several times???


Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 05/30/2007 11:41:32 PM
Message:
Think of it in these terms,using the pics Dan provided above.The longer pin(original design)when launching forward bottoms out against the front of the cavity in the bolt body,the "leg"stops short of hitting the bolt body due to the corresponding slot cut for it ending just ahead of the leg.This is the original design,the face of the pin body absorbs all the shock. If the shorter pin(more commonly found due to low production/survival of the early pin)gets put into the bolt WITHOUT A LONGER CUT MODIFIED GROOVE,as soon as you pull the trigger for the first time it slams the leg into the bottom of the bolt body,which it wasn't designed to do,and shears off.The shorter pin's face around the tip doesn't bottom out against the cavity face till after the leg shears off,which is too late. The reason for the shorter pin retro of course was the longer drop,insuring more primer activations,something that was a prob on the early guns,especially in colder weather. If one takes the bolt out-20/20 hindsight-,you can compare the replacement pin with the length of the bolt cut BEFORE you wreck a good pin.And correct pin guide for the new pin helps too.


Reply author: mike radford
Replied on: 05/31/2007 2:39:46 PM
Message:
Nice thread guys and thanks to all for the information.



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