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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
foudufoot
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 01:02:15 AM
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It arrived today from Germany via Switzerland. An fm 23/36 target rifle in original configuration and excellent condition.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/20077102645_Rear right with sling.jpg
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This is the 69th produced out of a reported 500 (Crown Jewels pp 174-177). Swede reports he knows of 8 in original configuration and believes there were only about 100 produced. The one at the CG museum (1031), the one SBHVA "fondled" a while back (1062), the one in Dana's book (1072), and a handful more. I'll let the pictures speak.

Characteristic features include a thumbhole, pistol-grip stock with no finger grooves. A Lyman 48(M)sight and bent blued HVA-type bolt, unnumbered:
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/20077103819_Lyman right.jpg
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1935 dated reinforced (no-thumb cutout receiver).
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/20077104445_CRown and year.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/20077105646_receiver.jpg
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A free-floating, unbedded, bull barrel:
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/20077104937_Front sight and crown.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/2007710503_BArrel markings.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/20077105218_front band.jpg
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and a hefty weight. More pics available if interested. Best, Dan



swede
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 11:39:23 AM
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Great find on a RARE rifle . Note that the blued bolt was not used on the original fm23/36 . Also , note cutout for the Lyman sight is to long . See photo #361 , page 175 in Crown Jewels , which is like yours . See photo #357 & #359 which appear to have a correct length Lyman sight . Not sure if you have a replacement Lyman sight or if another type Lyman sight was used originally . Also , it is possible that all the stocks were cut for the same original Lyman sight , but there could have been differant options available . There are Lyman sights known with a " Crown " stamped on the fm23/36's . All photos are 1000 yard sights , while I got a Lyman 48MJ ( 600 yard ) sight & front fm23/36 sight off EBAY with the Crown marking . So , we may have more Lyman sights than previously known on the fm23/36's . Do you have a " Crown " stamped on your Lyman sight ?

Do you have photos of the numbers in the barrel channel of the stock & handguard , matching or not ?



foudufoot
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 12:43:17 PM
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Stock and hanguard do match, Swede. Here's a picture of the handguard number:
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/20077112618_Handguard number.jpg
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The Lyman is identical to the one posted by Arilar.

http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=231683&SearchTerms=fm

It has the same, crown-stamped aperture.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/200771121510_Diopter markings.jpg
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This rifle appears completely original to me. The fact that it looks like a twin to 1072 in Dana's book also suggests this was the standard sight for that series of fm 23/36.

All numbers match including front band, bolt release, magazine and floor plate. Bolt parts are all unnumbered but crown stamped, including extractor!
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/200771121832_Extractor crown.jpg
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swede
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 2:13:41 PM
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I do not believe the blued & unnumbered bolt is original to your fm23/36 . Be sure to check the headspace before you try to shoot it !!!!!!!!!!! I have not seen any Swedish mauser with an unnumbered bolt from Carl Gustaf . All that I have seen are white metal & matching numbered .

The Crown / C on the aperture is what I believe to be a CG replacement part for the Lyman aperture . The Lyman sight that I have is " Crown " marked on the right side of the " base " near the slide . Seller claimed they came off a fm23/36 . There were some Lyman sights used on CG63's , but I have not seen one . I do not know if they were crown marked . I have not seen any other CG63 sights with crown markings . Although , the CG produced " GF " sight has the " Crown/C " logo on top .

By the way , does your buttplate have the pull down extension inside ?



foudufoot
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 2:48:03 PM
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You may well be right, Swede, although I would like to see if 1072 also has a white numbered bolt. The earlier ones, like Jorma's 1027 and 1031 in Dana's book are as you describe. I cannot tell if 1072 has a blued bolt from the photos. Maybe Dana remembers.

I will check the headspace before I shoot it, which is always a good thing to do. Thanks for that suggestion.

Another interesting difference with the earlier ones is the bolt cocking piece which is not like the typical CG 63 configuration. This could mean its a replacement bolt, or a variation. Note that this is a CG crown, not an tilted HVA crown.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/200771143650_bolt crown.jpg
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Jorma's 1027 on Dutchman's "House of Karlina" appears to have the same Lyman sight as mine and 1072. So I think it is unlikely they are replacement sights. These variations are not incongruous to me. These are, after all, trial rifles, not standard military production.

This one also has the butt plate extension.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/200771144553_Butt extension.jpg
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USMCsean
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 3:24:21 PM
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I'm glad you could get such a rare rifle. How long was the round trip on it?



jorma
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 3:31:56 PM
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Hi foudufoot, in mine rifle the bolt is numbered in ordinary method, may I ask how much??
Congrats anyway.



foudufoot
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 3:54:17 PM
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I paid 1,000 euros using the "buy it now" option (or rather the "sofort kaufen" option). It was listed at 700 but I did not want to take a chance a wandering Mauserdoc would come along and snatch it. Transfer to the US was a couple hundred more. Overall, less than an M41b and a much rarer bird. I'm happy with it. It's only money; this is a piece of history and a finely engineered Swedish hole-puncher!
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/200771155117_left full.jpg
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capnduane
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 4:01:17 PM
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Nice, Nice, Nice! Man, that buttplate would make one great noggin masher! Also notice the bolt shroud on p. 175 Crown Jewels is cutaway at the side, exposing cocking piece.



swede
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 4:08:24 PM
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First of all , Dana Jones has reported that the publisher of his book got the credits mismatched to many of the photos in his book . So , which ones are correct is unknown . Therefore , we are not sure which fm23/36 is actually at the CG museum . Some of my own photos in Crown Jewels have the wrong credits .

Having said that , see figure #361 & #365 , which has the CG63 style cocking piece , but with a cutout on the right rear of the bolt sleeve . I have seen fm23/36 #1074 with a white bolt & numbered " 074 " . It has the CG63 style cocking piece , but with cutout & has a tiny straight crown stamped on the end in the 12:00 o'clock position and a tiny " 074 " stamped in the 6:00 o'clock position . So , not exactly like a CG63 . None of the photos in Crown Jewels has a normal cocking piece with the raised thumb protrusion . My guess is that your bolt was replaced by a German civilian . It may have been sold without a bolt , to him ?????????

I received a new M-94 bolt ( straight crown ) from Gun Parts several years ago . So , they were available in the USA & I am sure in Europe as well .



foudufoot
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 7:08:57 PM
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Good observations Swede and Capncrunch! The CG style cocking piece and shroud cutout seen to be a common feature of the 23 and 23/36 models. Your theory, Swede, that this one has a replacement 94 bolt is reasonable. Since it does headspace correctly, I will be taking this baby to the range with my CG63 with fm23/36 receiver for a little head-to head competition. I'll post a range report.

Best, Dan

PS: The round trip, Sean, was 2 1/2 months, including transfer to Switzerland and BATF paperwork which I did myself. FYI, you can, as a C&R collector, import a few arms yourself but not for resale.



JIMMYC
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 7:33:04 PM
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That is one magnificent rifle!! Great find!! Why did you have to transfer the rifle to Switzerland , and then to the U.S. Is there some issue about importing it direct from Germany??



foudufoot
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 10:04:38 PM
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Originally posted by JIMMYC´:
That is one magnificent rifle!! Great find!! Why did you have to transfer the rifle to Switzerland , and then to the U.S. Is there some issue about importing it direct from Germany?
Mainly import costs. You can mail guns from Switzerland but you must go through an import broker from Germany. Difference is several hundred dollars and more time. Trick is to find a dealer willing to do this.



USMCsean
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 11:11:23 AM
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Problem is finding the rifle you want badly and then being able to have that same rifle being sold by a seller okay with shipping it overseas to the US.

There are three types of sellers that I have been able to identify.
Germany only
EU wide shipping
Worldwide shipping



Dutchman
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 04:14:42 AM
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If you're going to shoot it and you don't handload it might behoove you to procure some Norma factory match ammo to take full advantage of the potential accuracy. M/41 ammo is not "match" quality. Its good but its not match quality. I suspect the barrels on these FM23/36 are superior to the later CG63. I'll be curious to see how it shoots. Its a beautiful rifle even with that funky stock design. I bet it feels good to shoulder.

If you do handload what are you planning for this?

Forgot.. Lapua loads a match quality load in 6.5x55 that would be just as good as the Norma.. if you can find any.

Dutchman



foudufoot
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 06:47:37 AM
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Thanks Dutchamn. I don't handload but may start for this one. I'll search the board to see what the experts recommend, besides being very careful! I read the post on the double load. Now that will make you pause!

Thanks for the tip on match Norma and Lapua ammo. I'll look for some right now. It'll be fun to compare with GP11. Best, Dan.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
fm 23/36 range report

foudufoot
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 6:09:35 PM
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Beautiful day in Philadelphia! 85 degrees and only 40% RH. So I snuck out around 3pm with the fm23/36.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/20077718844_full right.jpg
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The Lyman was easy to sight in. I had a few rounds of PMC silver left so I shot those. Best of 5 shot groups is shown below. Why it always the last shot that you throw!?!
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/20077718155_Best 5 shot group PMC silver.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/20077717566_target 2 Jul 7 2007.jpg
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Average group radius = 0.58 MOA, maximum group radius= 0.91 MOA. I guess those Swedes knew how to make target rifles, 70 years ago....



USMCsean
Posted - 07/08/2007 : 10:14:22 AM
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The rifle doesn't do it all. Great shooting! Im glad this rifle turned out a good shooter. I'd like it just a little less if it didn't hold up to its purpose. But thats just me.



swedejohn
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 4:52:32 PM
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Hi, I am lucky enough to have an fm23-36. The following are pictures of the bolt parts and Lyman sight(no crown that I can find). The gun has all matching #s

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/swedejohn/2007718164757_fm23-36 1.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/swedejohn/2007718164813_fm23-36 2.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/swedejohn/2007718164834_fm23-36 3.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/swedejohn/2007718164856_fm23-36 4.jpg
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In addition, I have a M63 that was either made from a 23-36(I didn't do it!) or from a 23-36 receiver left over from the initial production run.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/swedejohn/2007718165036_m63 1.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/swedejohn/2007718165054_m63 2.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/swedejohn/2007718165115_m63 3.jpg
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I haven't posted anything in a while, I have been too busy shooting and having fun!
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Swedejohn
[email protected]



foudufoot
Posted - 07/21/2007 : 7:17:37 PM
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Thanks guys! Swedejohn, gorgeous fm23/36 and thanks for your pics of the bolt! This confirms that Swede was right about the replacement bolt on mine. Great call Swede! I am curious to see how the shroud is cut out. Clearly, it is only on the right side. Could you post additional pics of the shroud itself? Thanks, Dan

PS: I also note that the Lyman on your fm23/36 is the longer and, I think, later version that I put on my CG 63 with reinfored receiver. I guess that is a correct Lyman version for the 23/36. Very nice! Here's a picture of the one I have on my CG 63 from a 23/36 receiver.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/2007721181543_Lyman close.jpg
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Unlike your receiver, however, mine is a hybrid between a fm 23 and a fm23/36;reinforced receiver and 1935 date, but fm23 serial numbers:

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/foudufoot/2007721191517_Receiver numbers.jpg
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Yours also appears to have had some work done in 1970. Very interesting...

Thanks for sharing!
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Edited by - foudufoot on 07/22/2007 10:38:32 AM



swede
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 09:14:48 AM
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Hello SwedeJohn : Glad to see you back on line .

I have my own opinion on these target rifles . The true fm23/36 will have a serial number of 1000 to 1099 with the 1935 dated receiver . The examples that I know of fall very close to each end of that range and some have been converted to CG63's like your #1029 .

The fm23's have serial numbers in the 1923/1924 serial range of M-96's . I believe your rifle with the 505001 serial number would have been a fm23 that needed a new receiver & was rebuilt into a fm23/36 with the 1935 dated receiver & fm23/36 stock . This also applies to the one Dan has pictured . Another anomoly on this one is the 1908 serial range . Just spectulation that the 1908 CG M-96 needed a replacement receiver in 1923/1924 and that in turn was made into a fm23 , then a fm23/36 and finally a CG63 .

It is interesting to note that your fm23/36 uses numbers NOT matching the serial number 505001 , but matching the 3 digits , 101 , following the serial number . I have a M-96 dated 1924 with the serial number 510577 with 577 following it . Perhaps it was destined to be a fm23 at one time but never completed . It is NOT drilled & tapped for any dipoter sights . I have seen other examples like this as well . See fig. 353 & 355 in Crown Jewels with the extra 3 digits matching the serial number . See fig. 352 , where the extra 3 digits DO NOT match the serial number , just like your fm23/36 posted above .

These Swedish mysteries will continue to puzzle us !!!!!!!!
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Edited by - swede on 07/22/2007 12:33:40 PM



foudufoot
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 8:55:51 PM
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Swede,you raise some interesting questions about the Swedish numbering system. Assuming my CG 63 started its life as an M96 in 1908, then was converted to a fm 23, then to a fm23/36 with a reinforced receiver, this would indicate that the Swedes were very scrupulous at maintaining a serial number throughout the life of a rifle, which I don't doubt for a minute. I just don't understand the purpose and I believe there is a practical reason for this.

What this suggests to me is that they were trying to avoid any duplication of serial numbers. The reason why escapes me. Maybe someone on the board has an explanation.
 
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