[ARG]

Greetings to all. I just recently purchased a somewhat strange looking 1893 Spanish Mauser. It is completely non-matching, but all the parts have the same strange proof marks: a letter "N" inside a square box.

On the receiver is stamped "Fabrique Nationale Herstal Liege 1887". On the side rail is the four digit serial number. The bolt exhibits the same odd proof marks, plus the bolt face is flat on the bottom, and the bolt face is smaller in diameter than the actual bolt body. Something I have never seen before.

On the plus side, the bore is very nice and shiny, and the stock has no evidence of cracks or repairs. I will post pics when I have a chance......

I have searched the Internet for references regarding the Belgian 1887 Mauser and have found none.

Many thanks, ARG

 

[John Wall]

Arg,
FN did not exist in 1887. I look forward to seeing the pictures. The boxed "N" is a very common inspection mark on early FN long rifles.
Regards,
John

 

[geladen]

Chances are the date on your rifle is actually 1897. That would fit. It is probably not Spanish without a Spanish crest. FN sold these to Brazil and other South American countries, although a Brazilian should have a Brazialian crest. They may have sold small quanties off the shelf to almost anyone.

 

[ARG]

Here are some pics John. This is a confusing Mauser! The date of 1887 does not make any sense, plus the bolt face is a smaller diameter than the bolt body, which does not look at all like a Spanish Mauser, be it German or Spanish made. Also, I cannot find any import marks....the wood looks like it was bleached, and possibly refinished. It has nice tiger-striping, but looks to be too light in color.

Regards, ARG

 

[geladen]

How strange is that! 1887 is stamped on the receiver and that can not be a date of manufacture. It's not the serial number, either.

Maybe a rack number or unit weapon number? Maybe someone trying to make it look like an antique under US law?

The square bottom bolt face is correct.

Regards,
Bill

 

[mman]

Interesting. Yes, seems to be typical generic FN M1893. 1887 is a mystery, when you think you have seen it all, something strange shows up.....

Jack

 

[765mm]

This same rifle has been discussed here before.
See this post:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?175054-Help-with-a-rifle&highlight=1893+mauser+1887

 

[ARG]

So the consensus is that the rifle was marked 1887 so as to make it easier for the returning veteran to bring back to the states? It is not import marked, so an Afghan or Iraq bring-back?

Very interesting.....

 

[DocAV]

Look at the Type Font of the "1887" and you will see it is "serifed" style; THis style fell out of use Before WW II, because it was difficult to generate the stamps, and they were subject to fractures of the serifs ( "tails") on letters and Numbers.

SO, the Marking was NOT a "fraud" to help US soldiers import it from Ganistan...more likely a Rack number or store number for internal inventory of some small user. The chances of Serifed stamps existing in good condition in either Iraq or Afghanistan is like winning the El Gordo Lottery in Spain.


Interesting question, now..which user?

Doc AV

 

[Nyles]

Look at the Type Font of the "1887" and you will see it is "serifed" style; THis style fell out of use Before WW II, because it was difficult to generate the stamps, and they were subject to fractures of the serifs ( "tails") on letters and Numbers.

SO, the Marking was NOT a "fraud" to help US soldiers import it from Ganistan...more likely a Rack number or store number for internal inventory of some small user. The chances of Serifed stamps existing in good condition in either Iraq or Afghanistan is like winning the El Gordo Lottery in Spain.


Interesting question, now..which user?

Doc AV

I have to respectfully disagree.. during my time in Kandahar in 2009/2010 I saw alot of stuff in the market with serif stamps - fake WW1-dated British surveying instruments being an espescially popular item. I think Afghan fakery has evolved alot over the last 10 years or so as they start dealing with a more and more educated consumer base.

Not that that stopped a certain young Captain from battlegroup headquarters from buying about $2000 worth of ``diamonds`` at the KAF market...

 

[John Wall]

I have to agree with Nyles that this rifle very likely was imported from Afghanistan by a US citizen. In Afghanistan, US personnel can ship home only antique (pre-1899) firearms. If you search the Martini Henry Forum here on Gunboards, and the Martini Henry Forum on the British Militaria Forums especially, you will find several long threads devoted to the stamping of post-1899 bolt rifles with fake pre-1899 dates to enable their legal importation to the US. When it was discovered that Pattern 14 Enfields (for example) were passing US military date inspection with pre-1899 date stamps, and being imported to the US, all importation of arms from Afghanistan were halted etc. As you can imagine, this greatly impacted and aggravated the folks collecting Martini-Henry and Snyder breechloaders, and Enfield muzzleloaders. Additionally, a number of very artful stamped Martini-Henry markings have appeared in an old weapons marketplace that is very intensive and competitive around the major US bases.

ARG,
Regarding your rifle, it is a normal FN-made M.1893 Mauser in everyway except for the "1887". Regarding finding import marks, it is a genuine antique and would not have them anyway, even if the "1887" were not there. FN made many tens of thousands of these rifles, all before 1896.
Best Regards,
John

 

[mman]

Look at the Type Font of the "1887" and you will see it is "serifed" style; THis style fell out of use Before WW II, because it was difficult to generate the stamps, and they were subject to fractures of the serifs ( "tails") on letters and Numbers.

SO, the Marking was NOT a "fraud" to help US soldiers import it from Ganistan...more likely a Rack number or store number for internal inventory of some small user. The chances of Serifed stamps existing in good condition in either Iraq or Afghanistan is like winning the El Gordo Lottery in Spain.


Interesting question, now..which user?

Doc AV

I'll believe it when I see some of the rest from the "rack", like 1, 2, 3,,,,,,,,,,100, 101, 102,.......800, 801,........ 1885, 1886, 1888, 1889 etc, etc, etc...........

Fake date for export gets my vote

 

[geladen]

Look at the Type Font of the "1887" and you will see it is "serifed" style; THis style fell out of use Before WW II, because it was difficult to generate the stamps, and they were subject to fractures of the serifs ( "tails") on letters and Numbers.

SO, the Marking was NOT a "fraud" to help US soldiers import it from Ganistan...more likely a Rack number or store number for internal inventory of some small user. The chances of Serifed stamps existing in good condition in either Iraq or Afghanistan is like winning the El Gordo Lottery in Spain.


Interesting question, now..which user?

Doc AV

I'm sure the Afghans can make any kind of stamps they consider to be useful.

 

[Tombstone]

It is definitely and Afghan bring-back. I saw several FN Mauser’s when I was over there. The Bazaar owners know that GI’s could only bring back antiques---and they knew pre-1898 was the magic date. For years, Customs (not gun savvy) authorized anything that “looked” antique to be shipped home. All that “liberal freedom” came to a halt in 2009 when someone got wind of their ‘mistake’. Now cartridge-firing arms need a form-6 from the BATF, and it’s still a PITA to get approval to ship. The sanded metal is a dead give-a-way, nearly every arm I saw had a “in the white” appearance. The rumor I got for the finish stripping was that Customs would not allow anything ‘rusty” to be mailed into the U.S. (Afghan rust must be more dangerous than U.S. rust). I had a lot of “face time” with customs there, and read the regs, and lo-and-behold, there was a regulation that prohibited the shipping of rusty or dirty items. Even rocks had to be polished or sealed with lacquer before they would approve their import. Cannot remember, but I think it was a AFCENT or a CENTCOM reg, and not a customs reg.
TOM

 

[Michael_Zh]

Yesterday I held in my hands a Belgian Mauser which was made in 1889. It was no mark of year of production under the mark of Fabrique Nationale of Liege.

 

[mman]

Yesterday I held in my hands a Belgian Mauser which was made in 1889. It was no mark of year of production under the mark of Fabrique Nationale of Liege.

I sincerely doubt if you held in your hands a Belgium Mauser Made in 1889! Maybe a "Model 1889" Belgium Mauser?

As a former collector of Mauser "OBERNDORF" Military rifles(the only "real" Mauser) it has long been my opinion that the M1890 Turkish was the FIRST military Mauser. At least it was the first into series production in 1890. As the story goes, the Belgium contract called for the Mauser rifle to be ready in 1889. As I recall, Paul Mauser was able to provide one(maybe 2) prototype rifles on Dec. 31, 1889, only by smuggling the rifles into Belgium from Oberndorf because there was no time to do the paperwork...... Whatever, as I recall production of the M1890 started in Oberndorf before 1889 production @ FN....

I would bet $40 against the Ball Mauser book that John owes me that John Wall might take exception to the above....and maybe JPS too

But that my story and I'm........

Bottom line. If you did happen to have a Belgium Mauser, or ANY Mauser actually made in 1889, I'd sure like to have my little paws on it!

Jack

 

[Michael_Zh]

It's quite possible, that you are right. First of all it's really"Model 1889" Belgium Mauser. Unfortunately it's not my rifle, but I have the good description of this rifle made during historical expertise. On the steel parts there are marks "V" in the square and on the wood of the butt of the rifle the circular mark with the letters E.Q.H.D and 1889 along the circle and "L" and the crown in the center. The dating in expert description was based on this mark. Quite possible that it's mistake. There is no data of production on the steel parts. So it's possible to put any data under the " Fabrique Nationale" mark
It will be very interesting if you can help us to identify this rifle more correctly.

 

[VDB]

The official reception of the first Mdl 1889 happened on 6 Feb 1892. The '1889' on the stock cartouche is the model designation, pre-WW II Belgian regulation military Mausers are never marked with the production year.