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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ive been doing a lot of research and have come to a few dead ends, hopefully some of you can help.

I have two Arisaka model 99



info ive researched on both rifles:(both rifles have been in a closet for last 25 years so wear is pre 1985 atleast)

The first rifle i think is an Ariska type 99 Long rifle from the Nagoya Arsenal, Series 5. The serials all match up "43224"

The second rifle is an Ariska type 99 from the Toyo Kogyo Arsenal, Series 33 serials all match "60639"


Now for my questions:

1) The first rifle has the MUM scratched out a little which from what i have read is normal, although i have read a few variations. a few include, japanese prisioners of war scratched them off honoring their emperor. Another i read stated they only did it after the war with weapons that were handed over. then i read that one of our generals ordered this done to dishonor the emperor. my question is, which is right? or is all of these simply theorys to a question nobody knows the answer too.

2) I have read for hours on the subject of varnishing, and oil for old rifles, including the great article on the bonzai page that lists numerous substances, such as urushi oil, linseed oil etc... My question is... Im new to this and would like my guns to look good while still retaining their collectible value, what can i use that will produce good affects but wont kill the collectible value of my rifles. urushi seems to be possibley the best bet, but where do i buy it, and how do i apply it?

3) while were on that subject where can i get a manual showing me how to take the rifle apart to varnish it. I would also like to know where i can get a good CHEAP tool set designed for this very activity.

I wont swamp you all with questions right off the bat or i risk not getting answers, so heres my last question.

4) The Second rifle has all the markings i needed to identify it correctly but one thing eludes me, underneath the MUM mark their is no japanese marks for "Model 99" my other rifle has it but this one doesnt. What does this mean, and does it make it more or less collectible?



Please review the pictures below and give me any aditional information that comes to you, i would really like to know as much as possible about these two rifles as i can. I dont want to sell them but i would like to know of any possible value they might hold as well.

Thanks for all the help, ive been reading the forums for a long time so it feels good to post finally.
More pictures of both rifles posted below.
 

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Welcome to the board,

1) If you search on mum grinding in this forum, you will find threads with much discussion as to when and by whom this was done. What you have heard is pretty much correct, both the Japanese and US ground or otherwise defaced mums.
2) Do not refinish the rifles in any way, there is nothing you can do that won't reduce the value. Just clean them with a damp cloth and leave them alone.
3) You don't need a manual if you leave them alone.
4) The '99 Shiki' marks were dropped from most receivers in the 1943/44 time frame. this is called a type B receiver.

Your first rifle is probably a standard short rifle, i.e. T 99; like the second.
The long rifle had a 31" barrel, the 99(short) 25" approx.

Sounds like you have enough interest to buy a couple books. Military Rifles of Japan is a good one to start, check out the book sticky at the top of this forum.
 

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Collector,

Let me be more direct. If you refinish the stocks you have ruined 95% of the collector's value of the rifles - refinish at your peril!

Now with that said, it looks like the 33rd Series (rifle #2) has been sanded and maybe refinished. It is hard to know without seeing the rifle firsthand. Toyo Kogyo used a red tint urushi that is very apparent compared to another manufacturer. So if you can’t help yourself and feel the need to refinish a stock, then rifle #2 (sn# 60639) is your candidate.

The first rifle looks like a very nice and original condition matching Nagoya Army Arsenal 5th Series. I can see from the photo that the bolt and extractor match. Check the firing pin and safety knob for the same numbers. Does either rifle have screw-in cleaning rods? The 5th series stock is neat because of the two-tone wood (the split is suppose to be there) with the wide grain wood. The finish or lack thereof is also correct. If you look at the underside of the buttstock between the toe and grip you should see two marks. One is a factory mark (Toriimatsu Arsenal) and the other is the final inspection mark (Nagoya Army Arsenal). This is also a quick way to see if you rifle’s stock has been sanded – not always a true statement on late production Kokura and others.

No one alive that I know has any a definitive estimate of when a particular Type 99 was made other than sometime between Summer 1942 and Summer 1945. Value is hard to determine without more info. As a rule of thumb price is dictated by: stock condition, matching, mum, rod and AA wings etc…. How original as manufactured is it, rarity, and condition, condition, condition!! I will value your rifles between $150 and $250 sight unseen. Junkers even have parts value. I trust this helps and others will add where I have missed.

Enjoy, Z
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
the finish looks a little dull because i cleaned it with a hot wash cloth and a little hand soap bcause it reaked of smoke it looks much more vibrant now that its had a day to rest and settle. i took the pic right after i wiped it down. i dont beleive either were sanded upon close inspection all marks seem to be there and in complete tact. i could be wrong though since you both are far more experienced than i. im only 26 and have only been collecting for around 4 years now, all of my rifles except my garand and my original 1911a1 handgun were passed down to me.

thanks again for the info, im compiling all the information im finding right now and hopefully ill have another good resource available online soon.

as far as cleaning rods go, rifle #1 has a rod but its the shorter version that allows you to screw one on. It doesnt fit rifle #2's cleaning rod hole(little to big to fit in the hole)

i would also like to purchase a monopod for both guns, i dont think there is much of a way to see if monopods are original to the gun so this isnt a bad idea i think(correct me if im wrong). dustcovers may be the same, althoug im not sure if the dustcover was still issued with my 33 ill have to look into that. and of course a cleaning rod for the 2nd rifle.

I will do some research and list the parts i need in the correct section as soon as i am sure as to what i need.

Thanks again for all the help and if anyone has anything else to add please do.


on a side note upon first examining the guns i thought that both stocks had been broken and fixed. that was until i read about how the japanese did it intentionaly to spare wood. to say the least i was happy to read that haha.


any of you know where i can pick up a cheaper copy of "military rifles of japan" ive found it for 75$ on amazon here http://www.amazon.com/Military-Rifl...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232059269&sr=8-3

if i cant find it cheaper in next week ill buy it but hopefully i can.
 

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Collector,
You can buy MROJ directly from the author, his info is in the sticky at the top of the forum, find the book sticky.

To see if either of your rifles had monopods originally, check for the tell tale markings at the upper band, you should be able to see marks on the sides and bottom if the rifle originally had one.

Shannon,
While you were 'away', Stan and Edokko found much original production info on the T99 with production rate by the month. This information and extrapolation to the total production and in some cases when the production started and stopped were used to complile the chart in the T99 book, estimating the start of series production to a quarter of the calendar year(from the Japanese fiscal year data).

I think this is much closer than between 1942 and 1945; though not perfect. I wish they had marked rifles like the pistols.
 

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Hello collector :

Here is where to buy Military Rifles of Japan latest edition, directly from the author :
Fred Honeycutt
5282 Ridan Way
Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33418
send $ 42.00 check or money order.

Both of your rifles are transitional models, where the arsenals began to simplify manufacture by changing or eliminating the early features, this allowed to save materials, time, and build more rifles per ton.
Your 5th series Nagoya has a 2 screw front barrel band and a short 4 & 7/8 inch stacking rod instead of the early 3 screw band and 23 & 3/4 inch cleaning rod which was locked by a square button mechanism.
Both rifles may have the rear barrel band with the holes for a monopod, just to use up those left over parts on hand, but no pods were installed. So if you intend to put pods on them you will be changing their historical value, same goes if you try refinishing, blueing, etc.
By about the 50,000 serial number of the 5th series they no longer installed the pod band but one similar but without the special pad area. The wings on the rear sight are correct till late in the same series when that feature was also eliminated.
Toyo Kogyo 33 rd series also changed at that point to the same 2 screw front band, but their short 4 & 7/8 inch stacking rod has a smaller diameter than the Nagoya one, that is why you can't insert the Nagoya rod in a Toyo. That manufacturer also began to use receivers without the characteristic "99 Type" marking on top, that too is a simplification. There are dozens more things I can mention that demonstrate the changes being done at the production line.
About a million Type 99 rifles are considered "early features", 400,000 are transitional versions like both of yours, and a million or so Substitute 99s ( last ditch ) ones were made between 1940 to 1945. Most likely 5th was made in 1943 and that 33rd in late 43 to early 44.
Do your research, read as much as you can, ask us questions and don't change anything till you know what you are doing for sure.
Vicasoto
 

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Collector, you got a load of good onfo from these fellows. All I can think of to add is:

1. Origional monopods are inspection marked and vary slightly by arsenal. Even if your rifles had pods, adding an incorrect or repro. will probably hurt the origionality and value of your rifles.

2. Same for dustcovers. Origionals were Arsenal marked and serial numbered to the rifle. They do not interchange well and may scratch or rub off bluing from the receiver. Best advice is what Vic said. Do nothing until you are sure what you need to do.

3. Wiping the wood with a damp rag is OK. Light oil and steel wool ( or bronze wool is better ) on the metal if it has rust spots. Just oil if it is rust free. Clean the bore as on any rifle.

Are the action screws staked? If so you may not want to take it out of the stock. Not much to look at inside anyway.

Good luck

Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The only thing I can think to add is that they're Arisakas, not Ariskas.

haha thanks for the note, i was writing an article on my blog about the rifles, and noticed the mistake, just didnt change it. funny thing is i initially was searching using "ariska" and surprisingly came up with a lot of hits. just one of those words that pheoneticly trips me up.

Thanks hodydoody, i wasnt aware that the monopods were actually marked but according to people in this thread and the srticle i read on bonzai it appears as if the series 5 and 33 didnt actually come with either a monopod or a dustcover they have the hardware simply because it was there and needed to be used up. so im glad i was lucky enough to have the nicer hardware.

the only real rust they have is on the butt plate which shouldnt be to hard to get rid of, minor rust spotting.



it does look like a few of the screws have divots which adds to me not really wanting to take it apart right now. to be honest i think im going to just get them into firing condition and leave the rest alone. right now they are on my walls right between my mausers and garand. as it is im more interested at this time to get my 1890 winchester 22 into firing condition. it unfiortunately is missing some screws which ill need to track down.
 

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I'll only add that if these rifles were handed down I would pick any living relatives for as much information as possible. I'll take a guess that it was a grandfather or great g/f that sent the rifles home? Gather all the info you possibly can while the older ones are still around.
 
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