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Discussion Starter #1
i am a budding collector (six so far) and i plan on getting many more however where i live (Kommiefornia) doesn't offer much in the way of a "collectible" selection. most of the firearms in the shops near me are modern and the ones that are collectible are usually outrageously priced. therefore i would like to be able to shop the whole country and not get stuck with the outrageous transfer fees that all of the FFL shops near me charge (average $100 BEFORE sales tax).

knowing this i have thought about getting a 03 C&R FFL and have a few "unanswered" questions.

now before any of you respond with flames telling me to call the ATF or whatnot; i have been calling my local ATF branch and after reaching the supposed "guy to talk to about such things" he is usually unable to answer my questions. i have called several times and get a different person who knows about the same as the first. i don't know whether or not i should be worried that they don't know what they are doing over there or that my questions might be unreasonable in some way; so i will post them here in the hopes that some of you may know the answers.

1. what is the process in getting a C&R FFL?
-- i know that there is an application to fill out and finger prints have to be taken at a local police station, is there anything else besides this?

2. what are the fees for getting a C&R?
-- the ATF guy didn't even have a clue :confused:.

3. how long does it take to get one and how long do they last for?
-- again the people i talked to (there were a few "experts") didn't have a clue.

4. after getting the C&R what is the process for buying a C&R firearm as compared to before?
-- same intel as above, no one knew.


now i know that my state is not really gun-friendly (Kommiefornia) and some different things may apply or be different however this is a national license so some things should be somewhat similar to other states? i didn't bother asking the guys at the ATF field office this because they were less than helpful with the simple questions. any help would be greatly appreciated!!
 

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Mr. Flashy Pants
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1. Just fill out the application and mail it in. I may be wrong, but I don't think fingerprints are required. That sounds like a Class 3 (machine gun) transfer, not an 03FFL. Mr. ATF agent probably doesn't know the difference.

2. $30.00

3. 2-6 weeks depending on how backed up your regions is. 3 years.

4. You send a signed copy (don't sign the original!) of your 03FFL to the person you're buying an 03 firearm from and they send the firearm directly to you. You can mail it, fax it, or e-mail it, although some sellers don't want faxes or e-mails. With dealers it's best to go ahead and send it out so it will be on file for future purchases. There's a list with mailing addresses on my web site. The CA guys can give you more exact information, but I think there may be some state restrictions on handguns and some semi-autos aren't allowed even though they are C&R classified. Most dealers will know which ones, but individuals may not.
 

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No fingerprints !


regards....roger
 

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Mr. Flashy Pants
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Forgot to mention, you have to get a bound book and log in every purchase made with your C&R. You do not have to log in C&R firearms you already own unless you sell them in which case you log them in as "acquired prior to license" and then log them out. You do not log in or out any non C&R firearms at all. If you surrender your license then you no longer have a responsibility for any record keeping and are free to dispose of your bound book in any way you chose. You DO NOT send it to the ATF, only 01FFLs are required to do that. When you get the information package, which comes separately from the license itself, there will be a lot of stuff in it that only applies to 01FFLs (dealers) and not 03FFLs. Don't let that confuse you but be sure to look through everything and make sure you're covering all bases. As you've found out, the ATF agents often don't have a clue about 03FFLs and they are liable to tell you things that only apply to 01FFLs. When you chose to accept an FFL you are agreeing to follow the rules and requirements. The ATF has no sense of humor whatsoever when it comes to record keeping. If you are not prepared to dot every i and cross every t then you need to think twice about it.
 

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Silver Bullet member
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Do they still have that requirement to send a copy of your C&R application to the local Law Enforcement Official?
If so, just staple a note to it that reads "For Information Only - No Action Required." Otherwise you may get a call from a cop who has no idea what it is.
Also, in the PRK you can't get C&R pistols without a transfer through an FFL - long guns only.
 

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1. Fill out application and send a copy to the CLEO of your county and to the ATF

2. $30.00 for a three year license (No finger prints required)

3. 4 - 6 weeks (sometimes sooner)

4. Send a copy of your C&R to all the dealers you want to do bussines with so they can have your license on file.
 
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With C&R you will be purchasing rifles through the internet. You can't always see a good picture of the exact rifle you buy. Therefore since your from ca. you have the option of milisurp from Big 5. Good prices. Always having sales. Worth the extra fees.
 

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Gold Bullet Member
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Personal opinion from my own past experiences in the Peoples Republic of Californistan:

As long as you are living in CA, a C&R has limited usefulness.

CA does not recognize all of the provisions of the federally issued license, such as purchasing C&R handguns.

Local (city ot county) laws may make it even harder to collect even long guns or to receive ammo shipments. This varies from location to location.

Since you need to send a copy of your C&R to the local chief LEO, that organization may flag your home as a "trouble spot" due to the (asssumed) presence of "large quantities of weapons and ammunition". This will depend on the political leaning of the local chief LEO.

Again, depending on location, you may expect visits from various groups demanding access to "inspect" your premises. That this is not required under the federal rules for a C&R is immaterial if there is a local law stating that all firearms must be securely stored, and each and every one is supplied with a trigger lock, etc. You can try fighting this, but it is an expensive legal hassle, which is why it happens so often. Few can afford the costs of the fight.

As mentioned above, gun shows and Big 5 may be the least trouble for you. You get the opportunity to examine the firearms before purchase, and with ammunition, you can usually pick it up and take it home with you.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
...
Since you need to send a copy of your C&R to the local chief LEO, that organization may flag your home as a "trouble spot" due to the (asssumed) presence of "large quantities of weapons and ammunition". This will depend on the political leaning of the local chief LEO.

Again, depending on location, you may expect visits from various groups demanding access to "inspect" your premises. That this is not required under the federal rules for a C&R is immaterial if there is a local law stating that all firearms must be securely stored, and each and every one is supplied with a trigger lock, etc. You can try fighting this, but it is an expensive legal hassle, which is why it happens so often. Few can afford the costs of the fight...
now that is what bothers me the most. i don't want to host to people who want to "inspect" my collection, what the heck is that all about? has anyone had to deal with this? i certainly don't want to flag my house for harassment by the local law enforcement or whoever else has access to these records. :mad:

don't get me wrong i have nothing to hide. all of my rifles have a big trigger lock on them and are locked in individual cases and my handguns are locked in a safe.

i would gladly move out of this terrible state in a second however lots of my family are here and i have a good job; its just unfortunate that there are so many idiots inhabiting this same part of the world :(.
 

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With C&R you will be purchasing rifles through the internet. You can't always see a good picture of the exact rifle you buy. Therefore since your from ca. you have the option of milisurp from Big 5. Good prices. Always having sales. Worth the extra fees.

C.H.U.D = Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller. I liked that stupid movie.
 

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Mis-information is rampant !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


regards.....roger
 

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As I said, a lot depends on the political leanings, and the knowlege of the law on the part of your local chief LEO.

California, if I remember correctly, requires trigger locks on all firearms sold. Several areas also stipulate that the firearms be kept in a "securely locked" storage, or something of that type. I have not lived in California for several years.

Next, there have been a few cases of LEOs who attempt to apply class 1 (dealer) rules to class 3 (collector of C&R) license holders.

Large urban areas, such as San Francisco and Los Angeles tend to have the more onerous interpretations.

Finally, as I stated in my first post, this is just my opinion. I will gladly revise any of the points I mentioned if someone has information to the contrary.
 

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>>>>As I said, a lot depends on the political leanings, and the knowlege of the law on the part of your local chief LEO.<<<<

Granted. I ran into this myself when 6 months after receiving my C&R, the local law had the town clerk write to me saying I was in violation of the town ordinance requiring I have a "weapons" license. I went on line and found no such ordinance and no such license. I informed the town clerk that if she could produce the ordinance, I would apply for the license. It died there.

>>>>California, if I remember correctly, requires trigger locks on all firearms sold. Several areas also stipulate that the firearms be kept in a "securely locked" storage, or something of that type. I have not lived in California for several years.<<<<

This has nother to do with a C&R license.

>>>>Next, there have been a few cases of LEOs who attempt to apply class 1 (dealer) rules to class 3 (collector of C&R) license holders.<<<<

I would be interested in evidence of this. Can you cite the cases ?

>>>>Large urban areas, such as San Francisco and Los Angeles tend to have the more onerous interpretations.<<<<

I would be interested in evidence of this, also.

>>>>Finally, as I stated in my first post, this is just my opinion. I will gladly revise any of the points I mentioned if someone has information to the contrary.<<<<

Having opinions is fine. However, they shouldn't be stated as if they are facts



regards....roger
 

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Discussion Starter #14
As I said, a lot depends on the political leanings, and the knowlege of the law on the part of your local chief LEO.

...
and there is the million dollar question. oh yeah and just because i am new to this: LEO, what/who is that?

California, if I remember correctly, requires trigger locks on all firearms sold. Several areas also stipulate that the firearms be kept in a "securely locked" storage, or something of that type. I have not lived in California for several years.

...
every time i buy a rifle from a 01FFL they sell a trigger lock with the rifle as a part of the fees that is all that is required for a purchase. as far as rules for a 03FFL i have no idea. i think i might call a local shop that is pretty friendly and ask them about their FFL experiences.

Next, there have been a few cases of LEOs who attempt to apply class 1 (dealer) rules to class 3 (collector of C&R) license holders.

Large urban areas, such as San Francisco and Los Angeles tend to have the more onerous interpretations.

...
there again is the question. my city isn't nearly as urban as Los Angeles (Riverside) however it isn't a small town either. we have lots of rural parts and a few urban areas all within city limits. who is this LEO person again? someone at ATF or the local law enforcement? oh wait...is it Local Enforcement Official, like an officer? :D
 

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CLEO is the local Chief Law Enforcement Officer for your area. Could be Chief of Police, County Sherriff or State police depending on the area you live in. You are required to send them a copy of the application (there's a carbon in the form itself, too easy.) I added a cover letter stating that this copy was sent to them as a requirement of the application process and no action on their part is required.
 

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LEO = law enforcement officer (you chose what jurisdiction :))


regards....roger
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
i spent a lot of time reading the laws and guidelines on the website. i noted the round-a-bout way that most of the guidelines were written. i noticed how with a small misinterpretation the M1 Garand, Carbine and any military "scary looking" semi-automatic rifle can be considered an illegal or banned firearm.

oh man....i really want to move now but don't think i can just for the sake of collecting...

*sigh*

does anyone on here own a 03FFL in CA? how has your collecting experience been?

Thanks for the links and advice so far!
 

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MrBurritoMan, I live in San Diego and I would recommend you to get the C&R. Since getting mine I am poorer, have less storage room, strange smells in my hose, and very afraid neighbors.......BUT I'M VERY HAPPY!! Seriously, there are limitations here in CA to the C&R but the advantages far out weigh them. It really is not a big deal with the CLEO stuff and all that. Just research it well before submitting your application and you'll be fine. Surplusrifle.com has a very good guide to the forms and such. I have purchased 12-14 rifles since getting mine about a 1-1/2 years ago and it has been WAY better than buying retail here in CA.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
some of the future purchases i am looking at are a 1911a1, TT-33, and m1895 nagant; and i know that under CA law all handguns are not C&R eligible as they "could be concealed".

have you purchased any handguns using your license? i would like to get some more long rifles however there are more handguns on my "wish list" if anything. i will probably get my license anyway but im just curious what the purchasing process is for handguns in CA with a 03FFL. i just don't want to get dinged with the outrageous transfer fees at my local shops.
 
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