[trackhead]

Hello everybody! I am new to this forum and I have 2 mosin nagants: a 1919 Tula m1981 and a 1939 Tula m91/30. The 91/30 is a reproduction sniper but some members of the Russian mosin-nagants forum think the scope may be a real WW2 scope and advised me to post it here for your opinion. I have attached some pics of the scope. Any information you can give me would be appreciated.

 

[Acutus]

Welcome to the forum!!!

Don't see any pics.

 

[SturmGrenadier]

I see no attached pics track but maybe this will help you

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=27477

 

[trackhead]

I thought I uploaded some pics. I guess I need to try again...

 

[trackhead]

Okay, let's try this again...

 

[SturmGrenadier]

Yes it's WWII genuine....see my link I posted.

 

[trackhead]

Yes I did. It is a progress scope. Cool. It's mounted to a Finn-captured 1939 Tula m91/30. Definitely a reproduction sniper, but it's well done. The base is a puzzle...we are not sure if the base is post-war or not. Here are some pics (I hope).

 

[biggs1deer]

Is that a number on the left side of the barrel or Import mark? There was a bunch of SA rifles that were imported by century several years ago that had scope bases attached and recievers drilled for scopes and they were not plugged.

 

[AniWaya]

Is that a number on the left side of the barrel or Import mark? There was a bunch of SA rifles that were imported by century several years ago that had scope bases attached and recievers drilled for scopes and they were not plugged.

Import number, they did that for a while a few years ago when they had to come up with a new serial number rather than the one on the barrel.

 

[trackhead]

Import number, they did that for a while a few years ago when they had to come up with a new serial number rather than the one on the barrel.

It's the serial number as stamped on the barrel CHV 4954. I'll send pics when I can find the camera.

 

[trackhead]

...And here they are:

 

[AniWaya]

They used the original serial letters/numbers because the Cyrillic letters were compatible with the English alphabet. Some aren't so they get a new serial number. I believe they now use new serial numbers on all imported guns.

 

[trackhead]

They used the original serial letters/numbers because the Cyrillic letters were compatible with the English alphabet. Some aren't so they get a new serial number. I believe they now use new serial numbers on all imported guns.

Well that makes sense. Thanks for the info, AniWaya. So if there is no number on the receiver, then that is the way it was originally. I passed over an m44 at the gun shop because all the numbers matched except the receiver, which had no number. But that's ok, the one I put on layaway has a real nice laminated stock.

 

[trackhead]

On the Mosins Century imported back in the early 2000's and 1990's, they just translated the Cyrillic letters into the Latin aphabet we use, and kept the original numbers.

Un-numbered receiver on an M44 could be a good thing. It would depend on the rest of the rifle. Generally though, this is a plus. Even on an import marked rifle, the fewer non-original things stamped on it, the better. Also, a few M44's were brought back from Korea and Viet Nam, and these would not have the numbers on the receiver.

The base looks like post-war Soviet era. These were made and used from around the mid 1950's up to the end of the Communist era. A few were used as replacements on post-war Soviet refurbed PU snipers and one of Vic's original DDR (East German) snipers uses one of these bases and the post-war style mount that goes with them. Most of these post-war mount setups were used on PU scopes the Soviets put into storage as reserves.

Your scope was made in early 1943. Hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like your mount is also WW2 production.

Again it's hard to tell from the photos, but it doesn't look like there is any gap between the stock and the base. There needs to be enough space so that the base doesn't contact the wood under recoil, or it will crack the stock.

I don't think your rifle is one of the replica PU snipers Century put together in the 1990's using Finn captured 91/30's and surplus Soviet PU scope setups, as it doesn't have the little locking screws in the base or the cut-outs in the mounting screws for the locking screws. Maybe a rifle someone put together using one of the original Soviet scope and mount setups that were available a few years ago.

Thank you for the information Marcus. How did you find the year of manufacture on the scope? The mount does have a couple of tiny Izhevsk stampings on it. I could find no markings in the base, which is why we thought it was a reproduction unit. There is no gap except for a 1/4" space at the rear of the base. The front and bottom is flush to the stock. Would some wood need to be removed to make this a shooter? It's nice to know it's not a Century replica. I have seen articles about making a 91/30 into a sniper.

Do you think it would be worthwhile to revert this rifle back to a standard 91/30?

 

[trackhead]

Progress scopes with an A serial number prefix were made in 1942 and early 1943. Ones with a Cyrillic B prefix like yours were made from early 1943 into 1944. From the low serial number of yours, it was made pretty early in 1943.


Post-war Soviet era bases and mounts are generally unmarked.

Yes, the wood needs to be taken down some so that it does not contact the base anywhere. You don't need a huge gap, but you do need a little space. If this was one of the Century rifles, there would have been the proper spacing around the base so it didn't contact the stock.

Actually, there is nothing wrong with the Century snipers - some of them were well done rifles and good shooters. They have their own unique place in Mosin history. Many of their earlier ones had original WW2 scopes, mounts, and bases. Later Century got in a lot of original WW2 scopes with post-war mount setups and used these to put together replica snipers. Of course, they also sold these scope and mount setups separately, and a lot of people used them to build their own sniper replicas.

I used to buy these Century replica snipers real cheap, steal the original scope and mount setups off them, and then re-sell the rifles. This gave me nice scopes to use on my sniper restoration projects, and someone else who had a scope setup laying around would put it on the rifle and return it to replica sniper configuration. No way of knowing for sure, but yours might be something like this too.

Are the locating pin holes drilled into the receiver, and if so, are the pins in the holes in the base?

I wouldn't try to return this one to original configuration - just enjoy it as a nice replica sniper.

Of course, if you ever came across a nice original sniper that needed a scope setup, like the ones Samco imported from Yugoslavia or the Soviet-Polish-Albanian "asterisked" rifles Century imported back around 2000, you could put this scope setup on it, and then get one of the current replica PU scope setups to use on this rifle.

You're making me learn things again. I am not sure what you mean by locating pins, but here are some more close-ups from about every angle I think might help you. I also noticed from stumbling about the web that my scope cover is a bit different. All the ones I've seen have buckled straps and this one has a metal snap (see pic).

The general consensus appears to be leave it as is. So I guess I'll take off a little wood, shellac the uncovered area and enjoy my replica sniper.

 

[trackhead]

Most scope covers have some kind of straps with a buckle - some are sewn on and some are riveted on. A few have the snaps like yours - they are not very common. Also, a few (probably from the late 1941 -early 1942 period when the Soviets were really taking a beating from the Germans) have cloth tie straps.

The locating pins are 2 small metal pins that go through the small holes at the very front of your mount and the one between the rear mounting screw and the base for the big finger-turned tightening screw at the back of the mount. From the photos, it looks like your rifle does not have these screws and the holes for them were never drilled in the receiver by whoever put this rifle together.

Yes, the only holes drilled into the receiver are the two holding the base. I would assume this is due to the low-wall receiver not having enough metal to accommodate all the drilling. Any body got an ex-sniper to sell? Nice info on the case, thank you. I take it the case is used without the leather caps for storage and the caps are used in the field?

 

[AniWaya]

A few have the snaps like yours - they are not very common.

I also have a canvas PU scope cover that has the snap (looks just like trackheads), is it a WW2 vintage or are they early post war?

 

[trackhead]

Low wall receivers work fine with PU scope mount setups. Almost all of the replica PU snipers Century built on Finn captured or made 91/30's and Finn made M39 used low-wall receivers. Also, the Yugoslavians built up a few PU snipers on low wall 1930's era 91/30 rifles to replace unservicable original snipers in their inventory - the one in my collection is a low wall '39 Tula.

There are a few possible reasons yours doesn't have the pins. The most likely is that whoever put this rifle together didn't have the pins or the locking screws that are missing. A lot of the various bases or base and mount setups that have been sold over the past 15 years or so were missing the screws and pins, which are hard to find items.

Or whoever put this rifle together might simply have been lazy and not bothered to finish it, might have sold it before they could, or might not have had the tools to cut the mounting screws for the lock screws and drill the pin holes (although it wouldn't take much for the pin holes).

Normally, the canvas scope cover and leather lens caps are used together. The caps aren't a real tight fit and don't usually stay on real well, so the canvas cover helps keep them from falling off. The size and shape of the canvas covers vary a little too - so some will fit tighter than others. Remember, these items were considered disposable and were probably hand made by little old Russian ladies sitting in some dimly lit factory using antiquated equipment. Like old foot-powered treadle sewing machings our grandmothers used.

I'll put the cover on over the caps and leave it. Maybe the fabric will stretch and fit a little better. Is there a diagram somewhere that gives the dimensions of the missing hardware so I can scare something up to replace them or would one of the reproduction scope kits have them? What are the chances of a WW2-era scope base floating about looking for a nice home? It would be nice to have everything at least from the same period of history. And I wasn't joking about the ex-sniper...I am considering getting one and using the WW2 equipment to return it back to it's former self. I'm sorry for all the questions but I'm exploring all of my options. Thanks for what you've done so far, Marcus. You've cleared up some mysteries and given me more knowledge than surfing the web has. I appreciate it.

Roger