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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
My favorite handgun caliber?
Used to be .357 magnum.
Then I learned about a soviet adaptation of a German round,the 7.63x25 Mauser.

7.62x25 Tokarev.

Call me crazy,but lets look at a solid fact or two-

Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing
7.62x25mm Sellier & Bellot 85gr FMJ vs. NIJ II vest
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm

Test # AP 3
Bare gelatin. (Nominal 10% concentration)

Cartridge : 7.62x25mm Sellior & Bellot 85gr FMJ

Block Calibration :
Primary block : 4.6 ± 0.05 inch penetration @ 591 ± 0.5 ft/sec

Vest was draped over the face of the gelatin block. Vest was ‘new old stock’ but never issued. Fabric was Kevlar 29.

Bullet Performance:

Impact Velocity : 1521 ± 0.5 feet/second
Deepest Penetration Depth : 11.8 ± 0.05 Inch
Maximum Crack Diameter : NR
Max Crack Diameter Location : NR
Cavitation Depth : NR

Notes:
Weapon – CZ 52, with 4.6” barrel length
Distance – 10 feet, muzzle to gelatin impact face
Test site conditions - 72 deg F
Time out of refrigeration prior to shot impact - 5 minutes
Bullet recovered weight – NR
Bullet recovered average diameter – 0.462”
Bullet recovered length – NR

Here is a picture of the expended projectile-




Please visit the website above for a picture of the gelatin showing penetration and performance.

Level II Kevlar is the second highest rated soft 'concealable' body armor by the National Institute of Justice.
It will stop 9 mm FMJ, at ~1,175 fps,or .357 JSP at ~ 1,395 fps,for example.
Being concealable,available for purchase over the internet,and highly rated,you better believe its out there in the wrong hands.A prime example of this is the extreme lengths to which Larry Eugene Phillips, Jr. and Emil Matasareanu went to armor themselves for their shootout with police in the now infamous 'North Hollywood Shootout' on February 28, 1997.

Deepest Penetration Depth : 11.8 ± 0.05 Inch-Thats almost the 'required' 12 inches of penetration AFTER TOTALLY DEFEATING a level II vest.And thats a basic FMJ with standard lead core,available over the counter by Sellier and Bellot.
Also,please note that the FMJ projectile actually EXPANDED to ABOVE .45 caliber-Bullet recovered average diameter – 0.462.The weight might not be there,but the penetration and the diameter sure is.And I'll be willing to bet it expanded to that diameter because of breaching that vest,so were looking at a .46 caliber hole for just shy of 12 inches-in other words,this is a .46 caliber wound passing the total length of 'soft tissue' terminal ballistics,all the way thru the 'bad guy'-AFTER defeating his vest.
Not bad.
Not bad at all.


Wonder if there is a difference between lead core and some of the steel core milsurp ammo out there?I do,but I do know that this makes a CZ52 or a TT33 or any of its many varients a bit more appealing in an age when kevlar vests are being worn as a 'status symbol' by gang bangers.......

Toks and CZ52s arent the most modern of handguns to carry.But they cost around $200 and you have your pick in exemplary locking mechanisms,if not much else-Browning style in the TT33,or MG42 style roller bearing in the CZ52.
With a bit of proper selection,you can get a down right reliable and accurate pistol.

Both may need some minor work,like new springs or maybe a new finish,before carry.
But they carry like any other single stack full size auto,i've even heard that some guys use their 1911 rigs with the CZ52.

I'm still waiting,but the day someone makes a modern pistol chambered for 7.62x25 tokarev is the day I spend whatever money it costs to have one,at the risk of having it used on me by my missus.:eek:

For more information and to see how other 'penetrators' stack up,go here-

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page315.htm

You might be particularly surprised to see how the 5.7mm FN stacks up.......
I'll give you a hint:
Deepest Penetration Depth : 6.2 ± 0.05 Inch

Tokarev 'wins' again!:D
 

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Looks like you did your research. I like the 7.62 Tokarev-I just wish there were better pistols shooting it. My Cz-52 isn't very accurate. I have a number of Tokarev's and I like them but their round capacity is kind of low. Now something like a Glock 34 or 20/21 frame in a 7.62X25; I could get behind that.

A while back there was a guy (well, actually a fanatic/goofball) who posted on this forum who was obsessed with the 7.62 Tok. Had a real fixation that legions of armor clad gang bangers were out to get him. He totally went off the rails ranting and raving presenting no facts only hyperbole which didn't help his arguement or credibility. He then left Gunboards in a huff.
 

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I like the tok/52 handguns and the cartridge.. But since I do not think many Gang Bangers spend a lot of time in Kelvar and I don't ever plan to shoot at Vested Law enforcement officers, I don't carry a handgun in that round.
 

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I can almost guarantee you that if some company comes out with a modern handgun, that chambers 7.62x25mm, the round will get unwanted attention from our lawmakers or the BATFE.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Just for further information-

From Wiki-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest#Legality
"United States law restricts possession of body armor for convicted violent felons. Many US states also have penalties for possession or use of body armor by felons. In February 1999, the late Russell Jones a.k.a. "Ol' Dirty Bastard" was arrested in California for possession of body armor by a convicted felon. In other states, such as Kentucky, possession is not prohibited, but probation or parole is denied for a person convicted of certain violent crimes while wearing body armor and carrying a deadly weapon."

Because the majority of possible threats on the street to innocent citizens from the criminal element happens to be of the scathingly ignorant type,I do believe your alot less likely to run into a kevlar-clad thug.The overpenetration of the tokarev round then becomes an issue.
The majority of what you might have to deal with are drug addicts and would be muggers.
There are certain places in our nation where gang proliferation can multiply the chances you might be accosted by them in kevlar.I would carry a tok caliber pistol if for some reason,which I cant begin to think of at this time,I had to go somewhere like that.

Oh-
I certainly wouldnt suggest fighting the police.

A bit of an oddball,but 7.62x25 tok is still my favorite!:D
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I can almost guarantee you that if some company comes out with a modern handgun, that chambers 7.62x25mm, the round will get unwanted attention from our lawmakers or the BATFE.
Has the FN 5.7?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
That is not good.

I like this quote-
"Considering that rifle rounds will go ABV all this uproar over the five seven is quite silly. All this does is get people to buy a product that would not have if it wasn't for all this uproar.

A friend at work wants a Five Seven now after I mention the sillyness coming from NYC"

Sounds like the usual suspects are caterwalling about their usual pet peeves.:mad:

Hoplophobes.
You gotta love em.:rolleyes:

No wait-you dont!:D
 

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i guarantee you i would not want to be on the receiving end of a PPSH in full auto
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
i guarantee you i would not want to be on the receiving end of a PPSH in full auto
I wouldnt want to be on the receiving end of a single action .22 revolver!;)
 

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Yes it has had some unwanted attention but to this date nothing serious. I am speaking of the ban on importation of the SS190 and SS192 ammo. See links below:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-122615.html
http://www.survivalblog.com/2007/08/three_letters_re_advice_on_buy.html
http://forum.pafoa.org/rifles-42/39768-5-7x28-upper-ar-page-2.html

On the other hand a 1911 based handgun chambered in the TOK round would be uber-cool!
Back in the late 80's a gun dealer I knew got a bunch of pistols that Armscorp imported from China: Inglis and FN P-35's, c96's, and some 1911A1's. One of those 1911's had been converted by the ChiCom's to 7.62X25. Like a dummy I didn't buy it, nor did I buy the handmade 1911A1 copy that was in the bunch (did buy a Pre-War FN P-35 and an Inglis P-35).
 

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How difficult would it be to convert a BM or model B to 7.62 tok? I have a couple and think it would be neat. I guess the mag wouldn't have the OAL if it was a 9mm, but maybe if there was a 9mm largo gun, it would be possible? If the OAL wasn't a prob, wouldn't it be just a matter of the barrel and maybe a recoil spring?
 

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How difficult would it be to convert a BM or model B to 7.62 tok? I have a couple and think it would be neat. I guess the mag wouldn't have the OAL if it was a 9mm, but maybe if there was a 9mm largo gun, it would be possible? If the OAL wasn't a prob, wouldn't it be just a matter of the barrel and maybe a recoil spring?
When it comes to gunsmithing almost anything is possible if you throw enough money at it. Is this extra penetration from a 7.62x25 really all that valuable? Is this round soooooo much better than a .357 Sig with an FMJ bullet, or a full power 10 MM FMJ, or a .38 Super FMJ? Therefore the question is; is it worth it? No. It really isn't. When it comes to extreme penetration in handgun rounds the sad truth is that yes; you solve one problem (the rare situation when you may have to face a threat wearing body armor), but then you create a whole battery of other problems.

This subject has come up on this and other boards again and again. It causes a lot of posts, sometimes a lot of consternation, but at the end of the trail the facts, arguements, and guns available lead everybody back to the starting point. Time passes, everybody forgets about the subject, then another post is made and..............

Yeah, if I could snap my fingers and magically a Glock 20/21 frame pistol would appear in 7.62x25 that would be great. But it isn't going to happen.
 

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I spent my younger days buying guns for how well thay killed. 25 years later I still haven't shot anyone.

I love the X25 and my CZ52's because their fun as hell. Shoots like a magnum, booms like a cannon, and with certain upgrades shoots accurately at a distance, even with surplus.When you hit a can, it flies like no other round and you keep it flying.
Hollow points blow the hell out of fruit. And where can you still buy surplus ammo for about $.10 a round?
Fun, fun, fun.


Makarov.com, God rest their soul, had some special (USA?) rifled CZ52 barrel blanks that greatly increased accuracy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Yes,thank you for the link.

One of the more interesting things about the Tokarev round is that it adds an amount of versatility to handgun ammunition selection.Not only has its capabilities as a serious penetrator been proven time and again,but you can also add that this round will penetrate the FBI minimum 12" of ballistic gelatin with a few different personal defence style jacketed hollowpoint loads,with good expansion.
On the 'old' brassfetcher test pages,you can get an idea of the penetration and expansion that you get with JHP tokarev,which is typically no more than 14 inches (depending on your choice of projectile),with good expansion.This means that if you are using the tokarev with a JHP defensive round,you will most likely not suffer the risks of overpenetration that you would with ball,and you would still get the bonuses of deep penetration and expansion.

My favorite is Reeds 90 grain Hornady XTP.The tests on brassfetcher show it going 12.3" into the block with a recovered diameter of almost .50".An added bonus is that it is actually very accurate in my CZ52.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/762x25mmJHPs.html

From the Wolf JHP which is sold for 20 bucks for a box of 50,to some of the 'specialty' loads that feature premium bullets like Hornady XTP,to the FMJ standard lead ball that gives such excellent penetration,it is a most flexible round.

Being able to be employed successfully in a defensive role with modern JHP projectiles that negate its trademark super penetration,and being able to defeat kevlar on the 'off chance' that becomes an issue gives the 7.62x25 Tokarev some great versatility.

This versatility definitely gives the Tok an edge over many modern handgun cartridges.I can't think of another popular handgun round that has both of these same qualities.Most require more than ball to get the same penetration,and some dont even come close as a defensive pistol with JHP.

I would love to see Sig,or maybe even CZ make a modern pistol for it.That would be my idea of what the best all-around defensive handgun/cartridge combo is.:D
 

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Looks like you did your research. I like the 7.62 Tokarev-I just wish there were better pistols shooting it. My Cz-52 isn't very accurate. I have a number of Tokarev's and I like them but their round capacity is kind of low. Now something like a Glock 34 or 20/21 frame in a 7.62X25; I could get behind that.

A while back there was a guy (well, actually a fanatic/goofball) who posted on this forum who was obsessed with the 7.62 Tok. Had a real fixation that legions of armor clad gang bangers were out to get him. He totally went off the rails ranting and raving presenting no facts only hyperbole which didn't help his arguement or credibility. He then left Gunboards in a huff.


Lets knock off the name calling here. Being passionate about a subject does not make you a nut.
 
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