Gunboards Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In the process of cleaning up the 3 T99s I have now. One of them, most of the screws are unturned - I'm very reluctant to even attempt touching them so I think I'll leave it alone. The other two though have definitely been turned, or at least "tried". I haven't attempted to touch them myself. A few questions for the experts:

If the screws have already been mucked up to some degree, is it worth it to take them apart?? I'm wondering about the condition of the metal and getting a look at the assembly numbers, etc. Has it been the exprience that if the exposed metal surfaces are in good shape that the unexposed ones will be too? -OR- should they be "attended" to? I would think too that the trigger groups should be examined, cleaned, and properly oiled. -OR- leave well enough alone?

I know enough that if one is to attempt to address screws, that the floors of the screw slots should be as clean and debris-free as possible, and that the best fit screw driver should be used - which leads me to ask those of you that have disassembled, are there "known" tools that work, like "Screwdriver model# XXX from Craftsmen fits screws A, B, and C", etc. Or is it more a matter of just test fitting, maybe grinding down oversize drivers, or the like?

Thoughts, feelings, experiences appreciated!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
194 Posts
Your afraid to take your rifle apart? That is the first thing I do when i get a new rifle. If you use the right screw driver, you wont have a problem(along with pushing down on it hard, so it doesnt slip). On mine on some of the screws....the person didnt have the right size and messed them up a little.

On the untouched one....That is understandable to leave it alone.
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
13,820 Posts
Many leave the staked screws alone. I do unless I suspect a problem under the wood.

If they have been turned, I do a total disassembly, good cleaning including Kroil oil and 0000 steel wool on any surface rust, wipe it all down with WD-40 then apply a coat of RIG to all metal.

I clean all bolt parts, magazine, chamber and barrel with Dawn and hot water in case any corrosive ammo residual is there. The bore gets foaming cleaner and/or Hoppes 7. Then back to WD-40 and a coat of rig.

When it comes to screw drivers, I have dozens. I like one with a large handle and good grip. I find the best fit. I use Kroil oil if they are the least bit resistent to my first effort. If you get everything well done the first time, you are good for a long time if your storage is humidity controlled.
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
3,425 Posts
Hello Dieter :
There are two basic kinds of collectors, those who shoot them and those that don't. If you intend to shoot them at all then you must disassemble every rifle to clean, inspect, and prepare for shooting. Collectors who don't shoot their weapons disassemble them to make sure they are clean and prepared for long storage, having staked rifles can be a soul searching experience for those who believe in the sanctity and virginity of a staked screw rifle.
Having seen personally two rifles blown up due to sabotage ( intentional or not is the question ) , I do not want to have that happen to me or to anyone who buys a rifle from my updates. So it doesn't make any difference if a rifle is staked or not, they all get inspected for safety, cleaning, lube, record interior data for research reports. It is a must do for me.
You must use hollow ground screw drivers or bits for your magnetic screw drivers. You can purchase those from Gun related suppliers. Not only must the screw driver be hollow ground to fit square into the screw slot, but also the blade width must fit 90 % of the slot. Applting enough pressure to prevent slipping is a must. In most cases a common tapered tip screw driver is the reason why slippage and buggering occurrs.
Lube all threads as you reassemble and start with your fingers so you can feel if it wants to cross thread. On 99 rifles specially the screw threads are extra fine pitch so it is easy to crossthread, another tip I have a compartment tray in which I keep every screw to a rifle labeled so that the same screw goes back where it came from. This way I can tighten each screw in line with the staked point from the factory, I do this so that the rifle looks like it was manufactured, this is done for accuracy and looks not to try to deceive a buyer. I tell every prospective buyer that I have taken the rifle appart for safety as that is more important to me that the rifle won't accidentally blow up due to mechanical damage or tampering under the wood.
Vicasoto
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,249 Posts
Even though I don't shoot any of my Japanese weapons, I almost always disassemble new acquisitions and thoroughly apply RIG to all of the metal surfaces underneath the woodline. The only exception is in the case of arms that have screws staked in place. In my early years of collecting, I encountered many T-99 and T-38 rifles having nice external metal finish but, once disassembled, had large areas of rust (and pitting) covering the unexposed metal. The RIG treatment arrests any further development of rust and corrosion.

C/
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
3,255 Posts
I must be one of the few that never mess with screws unless I have too. I like to keep staked screws staked. Of course, on restorations I do what I have to. A book I have recommends grinding the screwdriver to shape when the perfect one can't be found. The closer the fit the less likely you'll mess up the screw.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Your afraid to take your rifle apart? That is the first thing I do when i get a new rifle.
Not so much afraid of the already-turned ones. I do take apart guns when I get them, but up this point, none of them are what I consider collectible, nor have they required the same level of disassembly to take down.

Many leave the staked screws alone. I do unless I suspect a problem under the wood.

If they have been turned, I do a total disassembly, good cleaning including Kroil oil and 0000 steel wool on any surface rust, wipe it all down with WD-40 then apply a coat of RIG to all metal.
I do find myself leaning towards this philosophy.....

There are two basic kinds of collectors, those who shoot them and those that don't. If you intend to shoot them at all then you must disassemble every rifle to clean, inspect, and prepare for shooting. Collectors who don't shoot their weapons disassemble them to make sure they are clean and prepared for long storage, having staked rifles can be a soul searching experience for those who believe in the sanctity and virginity of a staked screw rifle.
I definitely plan on shooting them, at least once, unless otherwise deemed unsafe - but then of course, they would end up as long term storage - and yes, the staked screw thing is the issue. I'm perhaps too new this to realize the significance of them, but my instinct says leave them alone, for now anyway.

In my early years of collecting, I encountered many T-99 and T-38 rifles having nice external metal finish but, once disassembled, had large areas of rust (and pitting) covering the unexposed metal. The RIG treatment arrests any further development of rust and corrosion.

C/
Precisely one of my concerns - I know outer appearances can be deceiving and I would like to see what is going on on the unexposed surfaces, and do some preventative maintenace (hopefully that is all that would be needed......) - not to mention peek at that assembly number as metioned previously. I've got the RIG standing by!!

Sorry for so many quotes within the post, and thanks CW too! Exactly what I was after, good info all, thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
486 Posts
I have left all my staked rifles alone and don't plan to open any up. I use Gibbs oil on my guns and its sprayable, like WD40, but way better as a lubricant and preservative. I spray this along the wood line and it runs down under the metal, on those I don't disassemble. It is better than no preservative at all down there. I don't have any RIG, but plan to get some in the future. But Gibbs has worked great for me and I use it on all my guns.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I'll take that into consideration. No worries about it soaking into the wood??

I've been looking at drivers, and thought maybe what I've found would be the "easiest" place to start, perhaps not the best. Any experience with these? :

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=439523&t=11082005

Got both good and not so good reviews on the Wheeler product.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=417&title=MAGNA-TIP+SUPER+SETS?#specs

-OR-

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/st...09&title=FIXED+BLADE+GUNSMITH'S+SCREWDRIVERS?

I don't want to skimp on quality, so if there is something better, please point me in the right direction!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
486 Posts
On my T-99's I have not had any problem with the oil soaking in the wood, but the stocks are covered with Urushi or something similar so it is not a problem.
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
3,425 Posts
Hello Dieter :
So far I see good advice from the various fellows, the Brownells screw driver kit is a darn good start, and yes if you have to modify a tip to fit a specific screw by all means do so, better and cheaper than damageing and having to rerplace the screw.
Let me describe one 99 incident I saw and the sad results, this was a 99 Nagoya short rifle with all early features and all bells and whistles on it. It sat over the proverbial mantle piece for a good 40 years. The vet brought it home and never touched it or did anything with it.
A son of his one day decided to take the old man's rifle out, so he went to the Ventura gunshow and bought a box of Norma ammo ( 1987-88 ), don't know if he cleaned it or not, but loads the magazine and fires the first round and the stock shatters around the receiver area. The fellow got an arm full of wood splinters and fortunately didn't loose a limb.
I saw the rifle at a local gunshop wanting to buy it for parts, it was not for sale but the owner showed me why the rifle was on display and why it failed. The screws were untouched, the floorplate was blown out, the mag box was damaged and naturally the stock. So he took a welding rod and inserted it through the bottom stock drain hole, it went all the way into the barrel chamber !. That means that somewhere along the line someone drilled a hole into the barrel in line with the bottom stock drain hole.
To express it in intelligle terms it was sabotaged. Someone else might say that the rifle was rendered inoperable / deactivated, but unless you plugged the chamber it was an accident waiting to happen.
How many other rifles have been so modified ? , you don't often hear such stories, so was this a stupid action or one individual's last hurrah to inflict suffering to the vet who picked up the rifle as a souvenier a literal booby trap.
One thing I learned from older collectors was that if you intended to shoot an old rifle by all means tie it down to a tree or an old tire and fire it remotley the first few times, that way if it should blow up you are not near it to get hurt. That example was a one time lesson that I have never forgot, despite cleaning and inspection, I fire the first round in such a way that it is away from me if I donn't have a handy old tire, the idea being that you just want to make sure it functions, if it passes that then you know the action is still ok.
Therefore my suggestion to you is, if you are going to leave the screws staked for heavens sake DON'T EVER FIRE THE DAMN RIFLE, put a tag on it to remind you that it is unsafe till it is fully inspected. If you follow the advice that you should have a competent gunsmith check a firearm before firing it for the sake of safety, what do you think he is going to do ?, yes he is going to take the rifle appart, clean it, check that it is original, that there are no cracks or holes where there should not be any.
So there goes the staking down the drain.
If staking is a guarantee that the rifle is in as manufactured condition and underneath the metal is still protected by the "original grease", then by all means keep it that way if that means it has a greater value and or you paid more; but remember it is just a closet queen. There is no guarantee implied that staked screws mean an original as issued rifle from the factory, that is a fallacy and rates along with Russian roulette.
Vicasoto
 

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
15,624 Posts
There was a long thread on Rig just a week or so ago.

Brownell's has it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Rwoods - RIG's a grease for protecting metal surfaces and such. Got mine from Midway, but I'd imagine lots 'o' places will have it. Cheap, and a little seems to go a long way. I also like using RIG +P on semi-auto slide rails FWIW.

Vicasoto - thanks for all that too. Good info for me!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
486 Posts
Great write up Vic. I agree very much with you that if you plan to shoot an Arisaka then it needs to be thoroughly checked, especially the bore and chamber including cleaned with brush and patches. I dont know why some people think all you need to do is load up and shoot, but it happens a lot. Me personally, I dont shoot any of my collector guns and don't have a desire to. I used to shoot collector guns in the past and some, pistols generally, left me disappointed. Also I had a grip break once on a Luger during shooting and that would tee me off to snap a Nambu grip just cuz I wanted to get my shootin' fix in. I always tell myself I will buy a beater Arisaka to use as a shooter, but I always end up looking for the collector stuff instead.

My suggestion for shootin' irons is a good AR15, carbine preferably, and a Glock. Great shooting, reliable and double as outstanding defensive weapons for the inevitable time in the future when we may need them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
You have 3 rifles now? Please post some pictures.
4 actually. The 3 x 99s, and a 30 (which believe it or not, is my favorite!)

Great write up Vic. I agree very much with you that if you plan to shoot an Arisaka then it needs to be thoroughly checked, especially the bore and chamber including cleaned with brush and patches. I dont know why some people think all you need to do is load up and shoot, but it happens a lot. Me personally, I dont shoot any of my collector guns and don't have a desire to.
I hear you on that. On the 3 99s, two of them have very nice bores, and best I can see with a light, the chambers look good too. Smooth. One in fact, I could hardly get any dirt or anything out of the bore, it is sparkly! One of the 99s on the other hand has a pitted bore and some degree of erosion in the chamber area - this might just have to be a sitter.

I do want to shoot them all, if they are given clean bills of health. But not much. I'd just like to know they still work.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=198080

The Mauser guys really like this set... me included...
Good to know - this is one I was looking at....so it has accomodated your Arisakas pretty well as is??

Thanks guys.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Ended up going with the Wheeler Engineering 89-pc. set. Very happy with it, managed to make quick work of disassembling my first-ever-to-disassemble 99! Thing has clearly been apart though, the screws were just waaaay too easy to remove. Good news is, Im finding the proper Toyo Kogyo inspection marks on the parts, so I'm pretty confident everything is original to the rifle and not replaced. I was wishfully thinking that the Mauser stock bolt tool might fit the Arisaka - nope! Any good "off the shelf" tools for this, or do you guy that go to that level have custom made tools???
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top