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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
pressure testing rifle
Topic:

Topic author: n10sivern
Subject: pressure testing rifle
Posted on: 06/01/2007 3:31:13 PM
Message:
how many of these are around and what is the going rate. i put a down payment on one today. all matching. i saw some article where a guy turned one in to the police and it stated that there were only about 100 of them and they were worth $5000. i guessing that the article is not that reliable. i've seen several posted here when i searched and the wood seems to be in better condition that this one.

Replies:

Reply author: BradB
Replied on: 06/01/2007 5:55:04 PM
Message:
They are rare. Value is high, and that wood is fine. The only thing that matters is original condition and being "in tact" overall. That appears to be a 99 test rifle... even rarer. The reason you see lots in a search here is because this is where most of the folks who even know what they are hang out. I'll leave to to more expert opinion on PT rifles as to what a good price is.

Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 06/01/2007 7:08:11 PM
Message:


I agree with Brad.....the T-99 pressure test rifles are the least commonly encountered of all Japanese pressure testing rifles. The late T-99 pressure tests (like yours) are the rarest of all. Here's a thread dedicated to the one I own.



As for value, even though they are rare, interest in them seems to not be high. I believe I paid $1,000 for this one about seven years ago.

C/

Reply author: n10sivern
Replied on: 06/01/2007 7:20:56 PM
Message:
seinen, what a coincidence. the one i'm buying is serial 48 and yours is 49!


Reply author: seinen

Replied on: 06/01/2007 7:38:44 PM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by n10sivern
seinen, what a coincidence. the one i'm buying is serial 48 and yours is 49!
Wow....that is interesting. What's even more interesting (at least to me) is that yours still has the rear sling swivel. For some reason, my swivel was removed and the inletting covered with a wooden insert.

C/

Reply author: BIG ED
Replied on: 06/01/2007 9:07:13 PM
Message:
What's really interesting is why is there a dust cover on a PT rifle?
Is it matching?

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 06/01/2007 9:18:19 PM
Message:
Yes does dust cover match? I can't recall ever seeing a swivel on a pressure test rifle? What is your barrel length? It will be interesting to see if it's the same length as Chips.


Reply author: arisakadogs

Replied on: 06/01/2007 9:43:15 PM
Message:
My PT rifle for 7.7mm SR ammo had the rear swivel. I have a T-99 PT coming from Groaning Ronin - Nagoya #25

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Note the straw color still present on the swivel screws. I sold this one about a year ago for $3500

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 06/01/2007 10:34:34 PM
Message:
Two recently sold for $1500 each, one went to a W. Coast Board member. Seller said it had a unique firing pin, perhaps the buyer will post photos of the pin.


Reply author: arisakadogs

Replied on: 06/01/2007 10:56:20 PM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by Ronin48
Two recently sold for $1500 each, one went to a W. Coast Board member. Seller said it had a unique firing pin, perhaps the buyer will post photos of the pin.
It cost a bit more than that!

Reply author: n10sivern
Replied on: 06/01/2007 11:42:28 PM
Message:
$1500, i'm thinking they are worth more than that. my guess is the one i'm getting is worth $3500-5000 just depending on the right person, but maybe i'm way off.

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 06/02/2007 12:29:15 PM
Message:


Originally posted by n10sivern
$1500, i'm thinking they are worth more than that. Yeah a little more like the $1700 Rob just paid.
I just dont see a 99 pressure test being worth anymore. Rob's earlier type 38 was a beautifull pressure tester but even that auction ending price was a fluke.


Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/02/2007 4:04:27 PM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by Ronin48
Two recently sold for $1500 each, one went to a W. Coast Board member. Seller said it had a unique firing pin, perhaps the buyer will post photos of the pin.
I will if it ever gets here! Do you have stock in UPS Ground or sumpin? I hate trusting anything to the Brown for a whole week!


Reply author: Mike Rockhill
Replied on: 06/02/2007 8:11:45 PM
Message:
I've seen some not to bad that didn't seem able to bring a grand, so I wouldn't get to wrapped around the axle assigning high prices for these. They are a specialized piece, and driven by a small market determined by how many of the higher rollers are ready have them or a certain variant. I would say Robs brought a good sum, because it is a 7.7 on a 38 action. IMHO I suspect the original object of this post had its stock replaced, with a cutdown standard 99 stock. Why I say this is I have yet to see a 99 PT rifle w/ rear swivel.


Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 06/02/2007 8:14:56 PM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by Mike Rockhill
I've seen some not to bad that didn't seem able to bring a grand, so I wouldn't get to wrapped around the axle assigning high prices for these. They are a specialized piece, and driven by a small market determined by how many of the higher rollers are ready have them or a certain variant. I would say Robs brought a good sum, because it is a 7.7 on a 38 action. IMHO I suspect the original object of this post had its stock replaced, with a cutdown standard 99 stock. Why I say this is I have yet to see a 99 PT rifle w/ rear swivel.
My "earlier style" T-99 pressure test rifle has a rear sling swivel, so I'm sure that most, if not all, of the T-99 pressure test rifles were fabricated with modified service rifle stocks.

C/

Reply author: Mike Rockhill
Replied on: 06/02/2007 8:41:28 PM
Message:
every one I have seen to date (5-6) have the football shaped patch over the rear swivel inlet. Am very curious of the dustcover. never seen one on a PT rifle either and is not really necessary. This one should be gone over carefully.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 06/02/2007 9:06:41 PM
Message:
My T-38 based 7.7mm MG ammo PT has an original dust cover too. Very strange but true.


Reply author: monkeyboy

Replied on: 06/02/2007 9:12:35 PM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by Mike Rockhill
never seen one on a PT rifle either and is not really necessary.
In fairness they aren't necessary on ANY rifle. Jon

Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 06/02/2007 9:44:19 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by monkeyboy
quote: Originally posted by Mike Rockhill

never seen one on a PT rifle either and is not really necessary.





In fairness they aren't necessary on ANY rifle. Jon​

Yep, and certainly not on this one we discussed earlier, however, this gun had a dustcover in place for most of its operational lifetime.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=144566

C/

Reply author: garfield
Replied on: 06/02/2007 10:01:47 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by seinen
[
My "earlier style" T-99 pressure test rifle has a rear sling swivel, so I'm sure that most, if not all, of the T-99 pressure test rifles were fabricated with modified service rifle stocks.
C/
I agree. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that n10severn's stock has what remains of the finger groove which would indicate that it was a cut-down stock. Therefore, if they were fabricated from existing rifles, as it appears they were, why not the "not necessary" sling swivels and dust covers.

Reply author: monkeyboy
Replied on: 06/02/2007 10:20:41 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by garfield
I agree. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that n10severn's stock has what remains of the finger groove which would indicate that it was a cut-down stock.


The proverbial brain surgeon might actually note the inlet for the recoil lug, not the finger groove.
Jon


Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 06/03/2007 02:46:29 AM
Message:

Whattayamean !!?? the dust cover was an ingenious invention for getting that "fine dust" out of the action of a rifle laying on the dry, windy and dusty trenchs of the north east Manchurian territory. True, they were in pretty low necessity in the later war wet jungle conditions, but back in the Meiji days when ole Kijiro Nambu was a young and upcoming weapons master, the neat little cover was the permanent answer to the Type 30 sand and dust bolt jam problem .







quote: Originally posted by monkeyboy
quote: Originally posted by Mike Rockhill

never seen one on a PT rifle either and is not really necessary.





In fairness they aren't necessary on ANY rifle. Jon​

Reply author: Nagoya10
Replied on: 06/03/2007 02:53:26 AM
Message:
Were screws staked on PT rifles?

Reply author: Otter
Replied on: 06/03/2007 08:30:53 AM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by Edokko
Whattayamean !!?? the dust cover was an ingenious invention for getting that "fine dust" out of the action of a rifle laying on the dry, windy and dusty trenchs of the north east Manchurian territory. True, they were in pretty low necessity in the later war wet jungle conditions, but back in the Meiji days when ole Kijiro Nambu was a young and upcoming weapons master, the neat little cover was the permanent answer to the Type 30 sand and dust bolt jam problem .



quote: Originally posted by monkeyboy
quote: Originally posted by Mike Rockhill

never seen one on a PT rifle either and is not really necessary.




In fairness they aren't necessary on ANY rifle. Jon​


Oh, I don't know...You're sitting in a bunker on Iwo, Saipan, Chi-Chi that you and your buddies dug in the rock...The Americans are throwing 16" shells at you and the cave is jumping, dust is falling from the roof...Your sargent yells at you to move up to the mouth of the cave and begin firing at the "invaders"...Dust cover or no dust cover? Well, if it's going to keep dust and dirt out of the action so I can immediately begin firing I think I'd take the dust cover. "Necessary"? No. Functional? Yes!


Reply author: BradB
Replied on: 06/03/2007 09:01:38 AM
Message:
I think the point is that nobody would be laying on a jungle floor or in a bunker on Iwo waiting to shoot at the enemy with a pressure test rifle. It's pretty obvious to me that the DC will be a mismatch and was placed on there by someone who felt it belonged to make the "weapon" complete. As far as why they stopped being used, the answer is probably the perceived benefit was less than the shortage of steel and manufacturing time. The bulk of wartime photos of Japanese troops in action show DCs in place.

Reply author: Mike Rockhill
Replied on: 06/03/2007 09:48:52 AM
Message:
I wouldn't say a DC isn't necessary on any rifle, but it certainly is cumbersome. It seem that a sliding dustcover was an invention of that period in history, early 20th century, where there was an emphasis on fortifications, and trenches. Sitting in one place an letting artillery rain buckets of dirt upon you, was the norm, and having rifle that weren't full of crud was a good idea. I think by the time the 99 rolled around the dust cover, like the hooked quillion bayonet, were past there time, and should have disappeared too. Also remember that the german army, having made many cutbacks, and simplifications, decided late in the war, to design a dust cover similar in concept to the arisakas, that could be retrofitted to any of their 98 rifles. I hear it was a fairly popular item


Reply author: arisakadogs

Replied on: 06/03/2007 10:21:24 AM
Message:
The 7.7SR PT I sold last year had a partial "cleanout" notch on the right side. So, these were most likely cut out of standard stocks. Also, the stock had no inspection marks which makes sense for an "in house" testing device.


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I'll post some photos of the one I bought from Doss once the Burro Express gets it here.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 06/03/2007 11:25:11 AM
Message:
Monkeyboy, hehe, quite frankly I also think these dust covers were outdated (as Mike says) pieces of unnecessary burden, that the army stiff headed bureaucrats insisted on continuing even after the useful life in the then modern warfare was over. But I had to take a potshot at you because I was just re-reading Nambu's autobiography, and he writes about how much efforts he put into inventing the dust cover and he just about bursts in pride at his design.
Please consider my misplaced remarks as a small toast to our guy who invented the core of our collections, the T-38 and T-99 action and the T-14.


Now, to the PT dust cover. Would love to see what kind of markings are on the T-99 PT dust cover that n10sivern purchased, since that may determine the originality of the cover to the receiver. My PT has a dust cover that very much matches the condition of the PT overall, not a repro, has no number marks, but has only the Kokura "se" inspection mark as with some of the other parts of the rifle like the bolt body. I will attach photos below but it does look original to the PT. Reason it's there is "???", but perhaps with the similar stiff headed minds of the arsenal bureaucrats, "all" rifles had to come with a dust cover ??



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Oh and one more thing, unlike A-dogs PT, mine does not have a rear sling swivel nor did it ever have one.

Also, thanks again to RCB for a super fantastic wonderful job on recreating the missing top portion of the PT measuring device ! This PT is one of the best things that I cherish in my collection. And of course, big thanks again to Jareth for letting us use his original piece to work on.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/03/2007 11:46:24 AM
Message:
Great photos Edokko! Roy sure did a super job on reproducing the apparatus on top - very intricate! Yeah, Jareth can be very helpful & can even be a nice guy when he's not busy picking on me!
I guess I deserve it for all the ragging I used to do on Dave F.!


Reply author: garfield

Replied on: 06/03/2007 1:58:33 PM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by monkeyboy
quote: Originally posted by garfield



The proverbial brain surgeon might actually note the inlet for the recoil lug, not the finger groove.
Jon​

Right on. I reckon that I won't get many calls to perform a brain transplant.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/03/2007 2:03:14 PM
Message:
Damn, I thought it was for the finger groove as well. Maybe it's a good thing I didn't become a Veterinarian like I had planned early in life!

Reply author: garfield
Replied on: 06/03/2007 2:08:09 PM
Message:
Dogs:


At least I am in good company.


Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/03/2007 2:23:16 PM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by garfield
Dogs:
At least I am in good company.
He he, have one on me & I'll have one on you!


Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 06/03/2007 3:17:05 PM
Message:
I read this thread backwards. Hope I got the jist of it. Japanese experience with the Type 30 must have made an everlasting impression on Japanese ordnance. I remember Taguchi telling me about development of the Nambu semi-auto rifle and T96 lmg. With army officers present, water was poured from above as Taguchi fired his development rifle. After success with the water, cement was poured from above on the wet rifle. Oh well. Firing stopped immediately. Similar tests were performed on the development T96. So, Taguchi was told to consider a dustcover (or?) in a redesign. Anyway, the dustcover was only part of the function fix for the Type 38. The 6.5mm. chamber was enlarged, bolt fit loosened, etc. I can imagine how Nambu felt when he came up with the sliding cover. Simple, one piece, durable. I had to fix problems during my career on jet/rocket engine development, and when I came up with a simple design with minimal impact on production, I was in hog heaven, and on occasion I got a patent for the work.

I would also bet that presence of the dustcover gave the fellow firing quality control rounds at the powder facilities a sense of security, knowing there was something else between him and a blown primer. I used to feel the same security during hurricanes when I had 3/4 in. plywood sheet covering windows on the house. Man, I was safe, but that was before I became older.

A funny story told about the Type 11 lmg which required a production fix also. The oil bottle leaked when transported on the shoulder of a soldier. Oil running down the back of the soldier and collecting in the shoes was a major problem. Man, I can feel this one. Only one of the mg developers for the 1936 tests vowed to get rid of the bottle. However, ordnance felt so strongly about its need that it had to be continued with all designs in the development program. So, whether it's sand in the action or oily socks, at least Japanese ordnance was pro-active for the soldier when it could be.

Reply author: garfield
Replied on: 06/03/2007 7:21:06 PM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by arisakadogs
quote: Originally posted by garfield

Dogs:
At least I am in good company.





He he, have one on me & I'll have one on you!

I'll drink to that!



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