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Posted - 04/07/2007 : 9:33:49 PM
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First, I must make an apology. This post is intended exclusively for 9,3x57 Junkies only. I am really serious when I say that unless you are stricken by kruttsjuke and an aficionado of the 9,3x57 caliber to-boot, do not, repeat, do NOT read this post. I have heard tell from certain family members that it borders on the essence of the weird and moves far beyond into the realm of the bizarre. I cannot recommend what I have done and I have no idea what failures or hazards or dangers are present {if any}. I am merely reporting what I have done as so far I have had a lot of fun doing it.

Having offered this disclaimer, I suggest that for those of you who are Kruttsjuk'ed Potetkaster Fans, you may find it entertaining.

It seems I am involved in a never-ending pursuit of new options for shooting the 9.3x57. In particular, for some time I have been interested in obtaining a light bullet for the caliber. The S&B and RWS 193 grain slugs intended for the 9,3x57R and 9,3x72R have been mentioned on this forum but I have never found any for sale anywhere. The thought of the inevitable next recession and the possibility that the bullet companies will strike .36'ers off the sales list leaves me with fits and a rash.

Wandering around my gun room I shot a glance at my piles of fired 9mm NATO/Luger brass and the vision sparked my curiousity. Thus, for some time I have been engaged in an attempt to make up some light-weight bullets using the fired 9mm cases as jackets, adding molten lead alloy as a core material and sizing the filled jackets in my LEE .364" swaging die. I have read of this being done in various calibers but never tried it myself. It looked like it might be an interesting and possibly simple project and it turned out to be interesting but not really so simple...

More and most importantly, along the way I noticed that my 7.62x25 Tokarev empties were about the right length for a heavier weight bullet and indeed this case seems like a winner after it is all said and done. Further, cut off and reformed .223/5.56 NATO cases look like they might serve admirably though I have not tried them as of yet. They are next on the agenda.

The 9mm cases of course have no shoulder or other shape that might improve aerodynamics, so in an attempt to put some amount of ogive on the bullet point I obtained a set of .30 Luger dies. These dies put a little rounded end to 9mm cases {possibly helping to secure the core?}. The .30 Luger die also increases the neck portion and I believe importantly, reduces the rifling bearing surface of the 7.62x25/.30 Mauser cases. In fact, the .30 Luger case itself might make for a fine bullet though as with the .223's these will have to wait for a future project. I don't own a .30 Luger pistol. Really, my desire was for a cheap bullet using a plentiful case for the jacket. Once-fired 9mm's are very cheap to buy in bulk from Graf's etc for those who do not have a 9mm pistol. Ditto .223's.

After several false starts, I finally settled on the following sequence:

1} Clean and lube cases.

2} Remove decapping pin from .30 Luger die and size cases.

3} Anneal by heating the cases till red hot and quenching in water.

4} Stand annealed but wet cases up on cookie sheet and dry them by placing in 275 degree F oven until POSITIVELY dry. It cannot be emphasized enough that NO moisture can be left in cases or a water vapour explosion can occur when the cases are filled with molten lead alloy.

5} Cool cases and then fill with molten lead alloy, placing each filled case on a level, flat steel block to cool.

6} Cores being loose in the filled and cooled cases, the "bullets" are lubed and run thru a .364 LEE sizing die twice. Springback created a perfectly even .366 bullet. This takes the .387-to-.391 OD of the 9mm & .30 Mauser cases down to .366 caliber/9.3mm.

7} Load as normal, taking care to keep the OAL proper to prevent bullets from being forced into the rifling.

The 9mm NATO/Luger cases made for a nominally 202 grain bullet. There were 6.1 grains difference in 11 weighed, finished bullets, so the mean was established and two groups were sorted; those heavier and those lighter being separated to be shot as a lot.

The reformed 7.62 Tokarev/.30 Mauser cases resulted in a nominally 249 grain bullet with less variation than the 9mm-case slugs. The total variation between 11 weighed bullets was 4.5 grains, so as with the "202's" two groups were formed, one heavier than the mean and one lighter. This was the extent of segregation used.

As mentioned, sequence of sizing and filling made a big difference to the usefulness of the final bullets. Lead alloy shrinks a bit as it cools, so jackets had to be swaged AFTER filling with molten alloy, not before or the finished bullets were left with loose cores. All cases were once-fired, and primers were left in in order to seal the base. Pure plumber's lead was tested but casting properties were not as good as that of wheelweights so I abandoned the pure lead. I used Hornady spray lube exclusively. I did not tumble or otherwise polish the final bullets. The actual jacket-filling went quicker than casting bullets, though the case preparation work made the total process more time-consuming than that of bullet casting, sizing and lubrication.

Loads were worked up and finalized for shooting tests. The 202 grain bullet was loaded over 50 grains of H4895 and the 249 grain bullet was loaded over 47 grains of 4895. Upon firing, I got some backed-out primers with the 202 load.

Testing of the loaded rounds commenced today.

A 5-shot group from each load was fired over the chronograph from sitting, rifle rested on elbows at a range of 50 meters. Feeding of both rounds was spotty and requires a certain herkyjerky throw of the bolt to get them to enter the chamber. One fear I had was that the rim of the pistol case/bullet jacket would tear off the neck of the 9,3 case. This did not happen. I have no idea if it could.

This most basic shooting test gave me a taste of accuracy potential but more shooting needs to be done to make a hard and fast determination. {I need to shoot the 100 meter Norwegian Reindeer Test to see if passing is possible.}

The 50-meter shooting resulted in a 4 5/8 inch center-to-center group for the 202 grain bullets and a 3-inch {exactly} group for the 249's. I was hoping for better but this will suffice for now. I do believe that the Beer Can-shaped 202's may be overstabilized at the velocity they were travelling, and I want to do some testing with 5744 powder to determine if a lighter load might help them. In fact, a load duplicating the .38-55 or 9,3x57R just might be perfect for these bullets.

Velocity of the 202 was 2440 fps with an extreme spread of 41 fps. The 249 went 2241 fps with an ES of 35. Demonstrating that these charges seem to burn very efficiently. Pressures are absolutely unknown.

The 249's shot better, well enough that under controlled circumstances {as when distance can be guaranteed as when shooting from a blind covering a trail, etc} such accuracy would be quite sufficient for deer...or elk...or...read on...

Next test involved shooting both bullets into my standard ballistic media. Results of this test were outstanding for both bullets. From the suggestions of others who have experience swaging bullets I predicted core losses and possible fragmentation or jacket loss and excessive penetration. Really, I had no idea what would happen to wheelweight-cored, thin-jacketed bullets hopping along at 2250 fps in one case to 2440 fps in the case of the other.

Could it be too much to say that the 202 appears to be a perfect 50 yard deer bullet and the 249 just may be a fine moose and bear bullet?!!

Both were shot into the media at the standard range of 20 meters.

Download Attachment:
57.74 KB

Photo 1 {above} shows the basics, left-to-right:

Prvi Partizan 285 grain Round Nose bullet.
Unmodified 7.62x25 cartridge case.
Finished 249 grain Tokarev Flat Head Bullet.
Unmodified 9x19/NATO/Luger cartridge case.
Finished 202 grain "Flying Beercan" Bullet.




Download Attachment:
163.2 KB

Photo 2 {above} shows the loaded cartridges and recovered bullets. Left-to-right;

Loaded 9,3x57 round with 285 grain Prvi Partizan bullet {for comparison}.

Loaded round with 202 grain "Flying Beercan".

202 grain "Flying Beer Can" recovered from test media. This bullet obliterated the first jug then gave full penetration of 3 boards and 2 jugs and was found in the 3rd jug. It dented and cracked the rear of the 3rd jug and dented the 4th board. Expansion .55", recovered weight 138 grains, 68%.

Loaded round with 249 grain "Tokarev Flat Head".

249 grain "Tokarev Flat Head" recovered from test media. Bullet obliterated the first 3 jugs. Full penetration of 5 boards and 4 jugs. Expansion .48, recovered weight 222.2 grains, 89%. This performance nearly duplicates that of the 196 grain Wolf 8x57 Soft Point factory load and a recently tested Speer Grand Slam 200 grain bullet when fired in the .303 British. Such performance is not tops to me as I want wider expansion, but the penetration combined with the expansion it did produce, along with the weight shedding {which adds to trauma} and good final weight retention make this bullet an interesting one to me for really heavy game. Maybe I need to test some more!

A really delightful surprise greeted me when I found that the jackets on both bullets literally acted as if they were welded to the cores, peeling back like a banana or, as in the case of the 249, peeling back like a half turned-inside-out sock. Cores stayed inside the jackets like they were soldered, though they were loose before final swaging. Possibly the oxidation and general carbon residue left inside {that remained from being once-fired} created a mechanical lock to the molten and rough core? Who knows. They work!

Both of these bullets appear to be real killers.

This last bit was "proven" when I took the rifle along for the afternoon "Li'l Bugger" culling. We are still in the midst of our annual spring pest and varmint shooting so these loads got some game time.

Shots were at close range of about 20-to-25 yards and terminal effect was of course decisive. The first critter presented only his head above his hole so I aimed at the dirt under his chin and sent the big 249 plowing thru a foot of loose earth till it connected with the critter whereupon it essentially sawed him in half.

Three others were shot with the Flying Beercan. One critter had its head severed and tossed about as far as I can hit a golf ball which is only about 20 feet. The other varmint took the shot on its shoulder and it opened up as one would expect it would. Another got the miner's treatment again as I bored another hole thru the dirt under his chin to get to him. Nothing above his chin remained.

Photos available on request...

Up close these loads are useful.

All in all I would have to say that though this project might enter the realm of the bizarre it has opened up new vistas for me and the 9,3x57. When the next recession hits and the bullet companies quit making thirty six caliber bullets I'll still have options.

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.

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Edited by - LeeSpeed on 04/08/2007 09:10:06 AM

Bolivar
Gunboards Member



Canada
11 Posts
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 10:40:54 PM
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Leespeed

You are a certifiable rifle looney. I could never even concieve of creating bullets from once fired pistol cases. The very idea is insane.

I expect that within twelve months I'll be trying it myself.

Thanks for being brave enough to try it, and for sharing with us.

Bolivar


Smokepole50
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
151 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 07:51:42 AM
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Great post Lee. You continue to amaze me with your efforts in making the 9.3x57 the new dawn of hunting in America. I love it.....

I have heard the 9.3x57 called a swedish pumkin chucker, I think we can now call it a Swedish Luger Chucker

You now have me thinking...

Smokepole50


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 08:53:30 AM
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"Insane"! "The New Dawn"!

Thanks!

Someday just maybe ".366" will outstrip ".223" and ".308" to become America's Most Wanted Caliber!! And who knows, maybe Husqvarna will come to their senses and leave chainsaws to Stihl and lawn mowers to Toro and recommence production of something useful like shootin' irons again! Anyway, this project really has no end in sight. A couple things deserve mention:

First, a CHEAP source for empties is key. I mean, if cases cost as much as component bullets a guy would have to be truly insane to delve into this affair. Once-fired 9mm and .223 brass is very cheap. Military surplus 7.62x25 is cheap, too and being corrosive/Berdan, not readily reloadable. Whether the two holes in the priming area would cause wobbling in flight I don't know. I used once-fired, Boxer-primed Wolff 7.62x25 Tokarev.

The. 223 brass is fairly thick and might result in a slightly lighter bullet when finished. That stuff would need to be run into a .30 Mauser trim die, cut off and then run into the .30 Luger die.

I need to find a quick and easy way to put a wee bit of cone on the Tokarev Flat Head. If I do, feeding should become fairly reliable. I have no idea yet how to achieve this, but I'm thinking the answer might have something to do with a RCBS case neck inside/outside chamferer and elbow grease. Taking special care when casting, pure lead would allow more expansion I believe, and even so, I need to try hollow pointing some of the wheelweighted bullets as I believe if I do so massive expansion will be the result.

The little 202 really amazed me, too. Superb expansion and great penetration. That stupid-looking thing must have the Ballistic Coefficient of a baby carriage and the sectional density of a loaf of rugbrød yet it turned in very impressive terminal performance at fairly high and stressful speed. I didn't expect that.

Here's another view of the rounds:

Download Attachment:
151.1 KB

I am open to all suggestions, comments and advice in this matter...



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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.

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Edited by - LeeSpeed on 04/08/2007 09:30:01 AM


Pettson
Swedish Civilian Firearms Board Moderator



Sweden
557 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 10:08:45 AM
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Reading this post suddenly made me remember that I have a package wrapped up for you. I had completely forgotten about it, until now!

And reading the above, I think I better get it in the mail before you cause any major damage... It must be fun to have such an inquiring mind?

Interesting posts, and to benefit of the forum methinks.

The Luger Chucker. Yes, that will be it's name from now on!

Pettson

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"There are no prospects for a man who is still disliked by the age of forty."
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"Good girls go to heaven. Bad girls go to hell. And girls on fast bikes go anywhere they want."
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www.elenafilatova.com

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Edited by - Pettson on 04/08/2007 10:10:23 AM


Mauser22
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
396 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 12:05:05 PM
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Lee, I am thinking you got way too much time on your hands in the off season.

Diversity is the spice of life!

Never change.


foudufoot
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1030 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 4:35:50 PM
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Thanks LEE for a beautiful example of recycling. May I suggest you share this with the environmental sustainability community. I'm sure they would appreciate you judicious use of raw materials and your ingenuity! You may want to avoid the PETA folks, however!

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You're not buying another gun, are you...!?!?!



Smokepole50
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
151 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 4:43:59 PM
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Maybe you could take a aluminium block, drill a 9x19mm case size hole on it the depth of the Luger case and then continue the hole the rest of the way through the block with a poring size hole. The front taper of the larger case size drill bit would form a good cavity for a cone shaped bullet head. A snug fit for the case would be necessary to keep the lead from gluing the case in the aluminium block. A .250 poring hole would probably work. This would give you flat point to work with when making your hollow points. A .250 bit pushed back down the same poring hole, prior to swaging the bullet to .366 would probably work well to form the hollow cavity in the front of the new .225gr Luger Bearcat bullet......

Actually. you could probably do the hollow pointing and the bullet removal from the aluminium block in the same operation. Just adjust a drill press to the proper hollow pointing depth and turn off the bullet poring spur at the same time you make the hollow cavity in the top of the bullet. The case may spin when trying to do this and it might not until you reach the proper depth and a proper HP.

This might work and it might not but it is something to think about..

Smokepole50


W.R.Buchanan
Gunboards Member



USA
33 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 5:51:50 PM
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C&H's owner Dave is very interested in this exact type of thing. You should contact him, www.ch4d.com. They will make you a swaging die that can be used in a regular loading press for about $100. It can be configured to do, flat point, hollow point, or any point, interchangably, and is adjustable for length so you can make any size bullet you can think of, Full jackets, 1/2 jackets, no jackets, gas check only?. It would be the ideal "final touch" to your bullets, by forming the front of the bullet(to what ever config) and swaging it to size in one operation. They have several dies that are off the shelf using .22LR cases for jackets, yours is just bigger Dia. Randy


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 6:14:37 PM
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foudufoot: I have of course always considered myself at least sort of "green", I mean, I am a Capitalist! ..or maybe that's a different green.

Anyway, I wonder if doing this to otherwise wasted cartridge cases will earn a guy any carbon credits in the post-2008 Brave New World Regime of Ayatollah Gore?

Anyway, thanks for the tip, Smokepole. Yes, I think can picture your idea and it sounds like a good one. At present I am mulling over how to put a cone on the tip of those 249'ers to help them feed. The square point tends to catch on the top chamber edge and a slight coning might just eliminate this propensity. Such a coning might would also result in the exposure of more lead up front and that might not hurt the expansion either.

WR Buchanan: Your solution just might be the thing to do. One of the early goals of this escapade was simply to see if it could be done and if so to do it as absolutely cheaply as possible. Now that I see it has potential, it might be worth that hundred bucks.

Mmm...I wonder if one of those CH4D dies would allow the reshaping/sizing of .375 diameter bullets to .366 without the flaws that result when I use my Lee die on them. THAT would double the number of available bullets for the 9.3 immediately, and some .375 slugs really appear to be perfect for the x57, notably the 235 Speer and 270 Hornady.

I have yet to use my Forster Hollow Pointer on the loaded rounds but if and when I do results will be posted. Ditto pure lead core rounds.

The possibilities are endless...

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.

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Edited by - LeeSpeed on 04/08/2007 8:43:50 PM


Kwahe
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
128 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 8:21:26 PM
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Honestly, Lee, you are one in a million! What a great idea.........
Kwahe


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 8:41:36 PM
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Kwahe!

Great to hear from you! Been shooting your 9,3's?


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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Husky Varmit
Gunboards Member



USA
10 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 10:30:18 PM
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Lee,

Based on the shape of that rpojectile do you think it should be referred to as the Luger Chucker - or would it be more appropriate to call it the Lager Chucker?

Bob



LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 10:35:20 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Husky Varmit

Lee,

Based on the shape of that rpojectile do you think it should be referred to as the Luger Chucker - or would it be more appropriate to call it the Lager Chucker?

Bob


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BWAHAHAHA!!

I do believe the "Lager Chucker" applies!

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Ordtech
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
150 Posts
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 7:47:31 PM
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Everyone beat me to it.
Better copywrite "Lee Speed" soon. "Lee Speed Bullets, Have Time, Will Doodle" or something like that.
I love your posts.
Dennis



Ordtech
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
150 Posts
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 10:40:15 PM
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Lee Speed,
I was off doing dishes and got to wondering if you might try hollowpointing them? Or if maybe reaming the case thinner at the mouth or scoring it somehow would help the expansion? That would be labor intensive but, you're doing it not me!
What amazes me is that the lead stuck to the brass where it peeled back, as though it was soldered on while going down the barrel. If they were a bit more accurate they might be good for groundhogs, too.
Dennis


W.R.Buchanan
Gunboards Member



USA
33 Posts
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 10:41:20 PM
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The C&H type dies are blind dies. You push a slug of soft lead into the jacket in the first die and then form the front end and the Ogive in the second, The dia. of the bullet is established in the first and then fianlized in the second.
Typically when you resize existing bullets, by squeezing them thru a die, you should only go about .004-.005 per trip thru the die. This prevents/minimizes the deformation that occurs at the base when you push something long, soft and skinny thru a hole. .375 to .366 would definately need 2 passes. You might get another Lee die in between, or get one like you've got and hone it oversize (mirror finish when done). In any event I would go .005-6 on the first pass and .003-4 on the second, or finish pass. Also a thru type die like the Lee would be better than a blind die, as far as final finish when sizing an existing bullet, as pushing it back out of a blind sizing die could easily deform the nose as it is much more fragile than the base. This is all very doable as people size bullet jackets all the time the same exact way. Reducing the size of a bullet that is made of copper and lead is not asking very much of the equipment. Good results should occur as long as everything is centered up and the bullet is not cocked, or being pushed off center when it enters the die, and you don't try to go too far on each trip. When the resistance to being squished exceeds the ductility of the base then deformation occurs, no mater what. So keep the resistance to a minimum by not forcing the bullet thru too small a hole all at once. Also I would juice it up pretty well with some thick oil. If you try to resize "Boattail" style bullets your follower needs to support the base of the bullet fully or it will deform. It's all about the path of least resistance, the idea is to make the path thru the die the one of least resistance. Randy


W.R.Buchanan
Gunboards Member



USA
33 Posts
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 11:07:25 PM
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Incedently: I cast 250 gr WFN bullets for my 44Mag Rifle. They have a .340 Meplat. At .430 dia they are almost a cylinder. That blunt frontend transfers energy to meat with great efficency. I call them flying bricks, I think what ever is on the receiving end of one of these, will be having a bad day. "Large gob of metal flying thru the air" is what it's all about. Aerodynamics only count after 100yds. Your bullets are cool, keep it up.
Have any of you experimented with "Potato guns?" More of the same. Randy


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 09:28:30 AM
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Ordtech: Yes, I too believe a HP would absolutely clear up the expansion issue with the 249's. The Lager Chucker performed amazingly well as-is. {!!??!!}

I used wheelweight metal which is harder than pure lead. I have a few pure-lead-cored attempts lying about and since it is track & field and baseball season the milk jugs should accumulate quickly. I'll have to try the soft-cores to see how they perform compared to ww core bullets. I have a feeling the lead cores might not grab the inside walls of the cases as well as the ww models did. But for deer, it might not matter.

I have a fair amount of experience killing critters with Hollow Point cast bullets in the form of the now-{I believe}-discontinued Lee 402-grain HP mold for the .45-70. Maybe the best all-time hunting mold ever. A real killer. Acts just like a Big Giant Nosler Partition. I do believe the 9.3 is just about big enough that it too could benefit by a cast bullet with a HP to insure some expansion or fragmentation of the tip.

WR Buchanan: Thanks for the info on the CH4D dies. In fact, yesterday I had a talk with Lee and ordered 3 more of their dies; a .370, .365 and .366; all push-thru sizing dies. All three together cost less than one from CH4D. I will report on how they do with jacketed bullets when they arrive. Since I already have a .364 die, this should cover the gamut of sizes for making jacketed bullets from both pistol cases and sizing down .375 H&H bullets and the .370 might double {in my 146} as a cast bullet sizing die if I ever get a mold for it, which as I look at bullet prices I suspect I will. I am thinking that if these dies work for me then Lee might be able to catalog a "set" for the 9.3/.366 and you folks who are interested might have some more bullet options. Actually, the heavier weight, tougher-skinned .375's would open new vistas for x62 shooters particularly.

I do have some experience sizing .375 bullets with the push-thru type dies and as you say, going from .375 to .366 +- in one shove is a bit much for most bullets. But the first critter I ever killed {that gone-crazy wild steer up the mountain} was laid low with a Hornady .375 Spire Point sized down to .365 and shot from my then-iron-sighted 146. Accuracy was not great but at 70 yards and jogging toward stage right the bovine presented a killzone bigger than a road map and the bullet killed superbly well, falling as it did right in the middle of the intersection of "Drop" and "Dead" Streets.

Last night while we all sat around the TV and watched Deadliest Catch I thumbed thru the latest Natchez Catalog. Bullets as we all know are skyrocketing in price. Part of the real attraction of all this experimentation for me is that I have a .375 H&H Mag and want to keep both guns shooting. AND for us American 9.3 shooters there aren't many choices {none...} for light .366-cal bullets. Sizing dies and .375 Hornady 220's and Sierra 200's {not listed in Natchez this spring, incidentally}, etc seem to be the only way to travel. Or Modifying Herr Luger's cases...

Next lot of Lager Chuckers will, I think, be made by filling with a scoop made to hold exactly the correct, and same, amount of lead. The problem with the variation in weight is that with the Big Mouth meplat it is too difficult to get exactly the same amount of core in at each pour.

The 9.3 caliber is perfectly sited to make use of sized-down .375's and of course paper-patched, common, garden-variety, cast .358's, a project I will probably get around to at some point but at present will leave to someone else.

Hint! Hint!!

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Ordtech
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
150 Posts
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 01:20:27 AM
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Lee,
I look at a Trapdoor over the fireplace every day. A nice shooter of the 405. I do load BP in 45-70, 43 Mauser, and 44 Colt. I've no experience beyond reading about paper patching. Big questions like can I use up the last orphaned 3031 or buy new powder? Now I have to study up. Well, I'm in hotels for the next month, reading up should keep me out of trouble. I'm sure Buffalo Bullets has anything I don't. I think Paul Mauser said that 9mm was the optimal diameter for a bottleneck BP cartridge. But then, he was trying to sell it to the Turks or somebody after smokeless was already in use. BP out of a modern sporting rifle. Excentric enough to be fun. Just kidding guys, I'll stick to smokeless and start with 358 Win or 9x57 cast loads. See what you started? And I suppose you'll want to steal my data just like I stole yours!
D


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 09:10:21 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Ordtech
And I suppose you'll want to steal my data just like I stole yours!

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Naturally!!

Paper patching is an endeavor that seems pretty easy, it just takes time. Years ago I messed around with it in my .375 H&H and had some surprisingly good results.

The .366 cal seems to be perfectly placed to make use of paper-patched 9mm/.355 and .35/.358 caliber cast rifle bullets. In fact, I remember reading an article by Seyfried years ago where he paper-patched jacketed bullets and they performed quite well. As I remember he had to rough up the jacket by rolling the bullets on a file. I do not remember the specifics but I think it was in a Handloader magazine I don't have.

Truth is, those owning 9,3x57R rifles might be best off shooting paper-patched 158-grain .38/.357 mag bullets. They could be soft swaged factory component bullets for the .38 Special and the paper would take the rifling and the bullets even at the broken-leg hobbling-along velocities of the x57R should still open up well on any game suitable to be taken by the x57R.

Since there are gazillions of .358 bullets and bullet molds out there, both for rifles and for revolvers, cast and jacketed, this paper-patching option seems a natural for 9.3 shooters. It does take some skill to roll them, but that can be developed.

The breadth of projectile options in 9,3 caliber is nearly endless:

Factory 9,3 bullets, die-reduced-resized .375 bullets, pistol-case-jacketed homegrown bullets, paper-patched "9mm"/".35"/".38" bullets.

There is certainly no good reason for a 9,3 rifle to become a wallhanger...none at all!

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Kwahe
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
128 Posts
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 2:11:20 PM
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Originally posted by LeeSpeed

Kwahe!

Great to hear from you! Been shooting your 9,3's?

Hi Lee and other friends! No, I haven't been shooting, as the white powder (the outside cold stuff) has occupied my attention for months, and now it's bowmaking and turkey season. But the warm weather needles one to get cracking, and those 9.3s beckon. I have looked in occasionally to find good work and interesting stuff here by all involved. As for your incredible idea, wow, I can hardly wait to get started on it! The potential for making completely unavailable (otherwise) plinking rounds of 100-200 grains for the 9.3 is also there with this notion of yours. Now, to find and secure a sizer......
Kwahe


sbhva
Moderator



USA
1477 Posts
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 5:28:36 PM
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Someone mentioned to me the other day that teflon tape for plumbing can be used to "paper patch" bullets.

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Steve




Ordtech
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
150 Posts
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 9:16:11 PM
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Great idea but, how do you keep the teflon tape on the bullet? I'm not joking, I don't see it.
Dennis


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 9:26:09 PM
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Ordtech:

I have also heard that one can use thread-tape for bullet patching but also as you ask, I don't see how it can be done. Even if wrapped properly per twist {to tighten as it goes thru the barrel} I don't know how a guy would get the wrapped bullet inside a case. The Lyman M-Die would make it easier, but still I don't see how it could be done.

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


A.P.Ball
Gunboards Member



USA
47 Posts
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 09:15:37 AM
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LEE and the rest of you 9.3x57R experimenters: If you give up on teflon tape and thread tape, Huntington's still has ready-made cast 200 grain .366 bullets (last time I looked). The older I get the lazier I get. But I understand that a good bit of the fun comes from the challenge. The post about using 9mm cases as bullet jackets is a brilliant and ingenius piece of work. I learn something new every day here. Thanks. apb


Ordtech
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
150 Posts
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 12:47:50 PM
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A.P.
Huntington's cast bullets cost as much or more than PRVI or Speers. I do wonder what mould they used. See, we're a) frugal, b) like to experiment, and c) plain cheap!
I just ordered one of Allan's 9.3s yesterday. If I'm to seriously experiment with paper & lead I need a smoother bore.
Dennis


Packrattusnongratus
Gunboards Member



37 Posts
Posted - 04/14/2007 : 5:43:58 PM
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Those Tok cased bullets should be hollow pointed in the Forster hand lathe. And you haven't tried that yet? Use the pistol hollow pointer. That adds only one more step but will make it way more effective with the 249 grainer. Wonderful experiment and the end result is quite useful. Both for game, in a pinch or total lack of bullets on the market. Now to the range..... Packrattusnongratus


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 04/14/2007 : 9:18:16 PM
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Packrat:

You are correct. I have one and use it {see the upcoming post on 8x57's}. I need to do same with the 249'er as you say. will have to and then report.

Nevertheless, my current Model of Tokerev Flat Point is the "Controlled Expansion Version". The "Deer Version" has not yet hit the market...

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Packrattusnongratus
Gunboards Member



37 Posts
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 5:31:43 PM
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I'm curious here. Have you tried some of the Tokarev bullets or the lagerkasters in hollow point form? You could try assorted sizes of center drills and cavity depths for different results. Packy

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Edited by - Packrattusnongratus on 06/10/2007 5:34:27 PM


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 7:20:49 PM
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This is a job I just haven't gotten around to yet. I shot some tests yesterday {posted} but next up will be the HP Tok and HP 9mm.

Stay tuned...

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.
 

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And the results...

Pettson

- - -

"Pistol-case" 9.3 bullet accuracy.
Printed from: Gunboards
Topic URL: http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=222869
Printed on: 09/12/2007
Topic:
Topic author: LeeSpeed
Subject: "Pistol-case" 9.3 bullet accuracy.
Posted on: 04/19/2007 10:40:56 AM
Message:
Finally got out and tested the pistol case bullets for accuracy at 100 meters. Shot from the varmint rest.

Left: Standard load using 285 grain PP bullet. 3 shots, 1 3/8 inch group, 1 3/4 inches high at 100 meters.

Center: HOLLOW POINTED c.244 grain bullets made from wheelweight filled, resized 7.62x25 cases. 3 shots, 3 5/8 inch group about 5 inches high at 100 meters.

Right: Flat point 202 grain bullets made from wheelweight metal-filled, resized 9x19 cases. 3 shots, 3 15/16 inch group about 6 inches high at 100 meters.

These groups aren't all that great, but they are as good as a lot of Winchester 94 .30-30's will do and in a pinch would be good enough for close range deer certainly.

Heck, this whole thing was a total shot in the dark, so I am reasonably happy with the results all things considered.

Gotta test that 244 HP in the jugs...

 

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I just ordered a Husq/FN -98 barreled action in 9.3x57. As a cast bullet junkie and odd-ball cartridge reloader I must say, this has been the most entertaining thread I've read on any forum in quite some time and look forward to getting my rifle stocked so I can get to work building bullets.I am considering an NEI gas checked bullet mold as a cheap ($80) alternative to factory bullet of any kind -tho the C&H swaging option seems doable. I have little experience in smokeless powder paper-patching but I have a plethora of heavyish .358 -.360" diameter rifle molds to experiment with. This is going to be a fun winter. Thanks for resurrecting this (timely) thread! Regards~Andy

PS: For cast bullet shooters... Any thoughts of getting together for a "group purchase" of a custom Lee mold for the 9.3? $100 set up fee and $25 per mold thereafter. Just a thought....
 

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Great! That's two of us. Anybody else? The more the cheaper...

I talked to NEI today and they make their .366 mold in varying weights: 249 grains, 280 grains, and 304 grains depending on how many driving bands you want. A two cavity mold is $86 for aluminum, $111 for iron. All molds cast .001 to .003" oversize.

Lock, Stock, and Barrel in Valentine, NE seems to have the best price on 9x57 dies. Hornady Specialty Dies @ $49.95 as set. Not in stock but they will get them when you order.

You can tell I had the day off from work, eh?~Andy
 

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I'm in!

I just picked up a cape gun and I am ALMOST sue that it is 9.3x57R on one side. The bore is definitely 9.3 and the 72R cartridge is about half an inch too long......


Edited by Moderator: This thread is about the 9.3x57 cartridge, not the 9.3x57 R 360. Please stay on topic.
 
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