Gunboards Forums banner

21 - 40 of 114 Posts

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
250 Posts
I also took Basic in 1967. Ft. Lewis, North Fort B-3-2 in the temporary barracks built in WW1. There was no point and shoot training for us, just straight up M-14 familiarization, sighting in, train fire at targets and fire for record. Night fire, was what they called the crawling through the cold mud of December with machine gun tracers, mortar pits and barbed wire. The Vietnam village was in the last week of Basic and we had no live ammo so obviously there was no shooting but there were several trip wires set to explosives and other nasty little surprises. We also got a brief tutorial on the M-16 in the last week where the Drill Sargent began by shooting it with the butt against his genitalia to illustrate how little it kicked. Two weeks off till after the first of the year and off to Armor school at Ft. Knox where it was even colder. Tom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
847 Posts
I remember doing that in basic back in 75 at Ft. Knox, we all walked down on range with our rifles at about waist high, there were pop-up targets on either side of the path we were to stop and point and shoot without shouldering the rifle. except we didn't get any kind of practice, we were just shown what we should do. it was more of familiarization then qualifying.

the other part I remember was low crawling to a MG position while it fired live rounds over out head, to get close to throw a dummy hand grenade.
Point man drills.

We used to do a point and shoot drill were you just got into a stance and shot. You find if your stance is good, then your rounds will be end up in the bowling pin.

All that is emergency drills and does not replace proper sight picture. Bottom line is use proper sight picture, good fundamentals, proper stance, and recoil management. The fastest miss does not win gun fights or even the first hit.

The first hit in a lethal zone wins.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,170 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
Point man drills.

We used to do a point and shoot drill were you just got into a stance and shot. You find if your stance is good, then your rounds will be end up in the bowling pin.

All that is emergency drills and does not replace proper sight picture. Bottom line is use proper sight picture, good fundamentals, proper stance, and recoil management. The fastest miss does not win gun fights or even the first hit.

The first hit in a lethal zone wins.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
I found point and shoot the only way I could ever hit a clay with a shotgun. Aiming took too long; by the time I got a bead on it, it was too far out.

Didn't think of transferring that to a handgun until I got bored standing in a booth shooting at static paper targets. I decided, at the ripe young age of 60 or so, to do some competitive shooting at the local range through USPSA. Loads of fun actually - guns and adrenaline! First few months I was accurate as heck, but slow as molasses. Even with a handicap for shooting 45ACP (and being old) I wasn't pleased and was ready to give up. One of the younger guys said I was overthinking it (first time I've EVER been accused of that!) and told me to stop aiming and just shoot. My time dropped significantly, my accuracy didn't suffer much, and my scores went way up. Found it worked well indoors at reasonably short/mid distances and also at longer distances at some of the outdoor matches.

The only time point and shoot failed me was a three-gun match where, after firing your rifle at targets 125 yards away (from two different locations!) you had to run about 75 yards to the handgun section and knock down a bunch of steels. Turns out when your chest is heaving trying to catch your breath, even trying to aim can lead to a lot of misses!
 

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
48,511 Posts
Stan sweet Channel 6 weatherman..talked like mr Magoo cartoon?
one time fastest draw years new man Bluefield wva..Deceased now.
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
10,377 Posts
Here's the new and unissued Daisy Quick-Kill BB Gun I referenced above. Note the lack of sights.











 

·
Diamond with Oak Clusters Bullet Member
Joined
·
57,805 Posts
As a youngster and probably many of you too my idols were Chuck Connors, Audie Murphy, Clayton Moore, John Wayne, you know, all those early westerns where the cowboys could just point an shoot.
Me and my BB guns learned how to do that early on.

I would say as North Bender did that starting off with a BB gun is best. I could hit a lizard on the run with my Red Ryder. And after thousands of rounds with my .22 there wasn't much I couldn't hit out 20 yards, cans were the target of choice.
It's gets to be like muscle memory even to this day.
My parents were deathly afraid of BB guns. They considered them too dangerous because too many treated them as toys. Instead when I was 12, they gave me my personal pistol and set up a firing range in the basement of the house. My brothers each received one also when they were 12.

I treated my kids the same way as I remembered how dangerous the BB guns were so I brought my kids up with firearms.
And like my parents, I showed them not toys as what they could do if one was careless.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,005 Posts
Hello Gents,

BB guns aside, one of the greatest advantages of the classic English double-rifles is that providing the rifle is stocked properly for the person shooting it, you point and shoot with the sights.

My John Rigby .450 NE 3 1/4" double and my Joseph Manton .500 NE 3" double, both make point shooting with the sights the norm. A combination of the length of pull, cast off in the stock and the height of the cheek, when properly fit to the owner, ensures that literally every time you shoulder the rifle quickly the sights are aligned perfectly with your eye.

T- John Rigby 450 3 1-4 inch - B- Joseph Manton 500 NE 3 inch.jpg

John Rigby 450 3 1-4 NE Double Rifle circa 1904.jpg

Joseph Manton 500 NE 3 inch Double Rifle circa 1908.jpg

Lft - 450 3 1-4NE - C - 500 NE 3 - Rt - 30-06.jpg

L~R ~ .450 NE 3 1/4" ~ .500 NE 3" ~ .30-06

In my case, I was lucky with both rifles and neither of them required any changes in any of these three features. However, back in the day in Zim, I was asked by a friend who was also a fellow PH, if I would please pick up the .500 NE 3" double-rifle that was gifted to him by a wealthy client here in the States. I was tasked with working up full-house hand-loads that properly regulated the barrels before bringing the rifle and 300 rounds of proper reloads with me "across the pond."

You can't simply buy an old English double-rifle and a box of commercial ammunition and off you go! The barrels gradually converge towards the muzzles due to the effect of barrel harmonics with both barrels soldered to the central rib. If the ammunition matches the rifle properly, both barrels will shoot to the point of aim at 60 to 75 meters depending on the rifle.

With proper ammunition, both barrels will place the bullets side-by-side until they cross at the intended distance. If the ammunition doesn't fit the rifle, one barrel might shoot high and the other low or wide! So you have to work up just the right hand-loads in single grain increments until both barrels shoot to the point of aim. Over the years I've "regulated" loads for a half dozen doubles in addition to my own rifles.

When I picked up Don's .500 as mentioned above, the damn rifle was originally manufactured in England for some skinny faced, angular jawed damn Limey!!! ....... UP THE IRISH!!! ....... Moving on, the length of pull was fine, but between the cast-off and comb, to line up my right eye with the sights, the thin section dug into my face just below the cheek bone! By the time I finished working up the proper loads, I started with a bruise followed by a black eye due to the recoil.

To give you an idea as to load for the .500 NE 3", my Manton shoots to the point of aim at 65 meters with either a 570 or 600 grain bullet on top of 85 grains of IMR 3031. In my double, which fits me perfectly, the recoil is not bad at all if one is used to shooting heavy rifles, however that damn .500 of Don's rattled my damn teeth loose!

That you can point shoot with the sights, along with a guaranteed second shot, is what makes the traditional English double-rifle the finest dangerous game rifle to this day. In addition, without the added length of a bolt-action, double-rifles are also handy and short in overall length without sacrificing barrel length. A good double shoulders like a shotgun. Every single PH I have ever met who has used a double in the bush, doesn't want any other rifle if Elephant, Cape Buffalo or Lion are on a client's quota.

Bull Elephant w Manolo - Matetsi Unit 5 - 7R.jpg

In this photo, compare the overall length of my .500 double with my client's .416 Rigby bolt-action rifle.

If a double-rifle fits you properly, when the "shit-hits-the-fan", you simply look and shoot with the express sights in perfect alignment with your eye every time you shoulder the rifle. This fact has saved my bacon and those of my hunting party on numerous occasions, including two wounded Leopards which are preferably followed-up with a double-barrel 12G or 10G! Still, both cats were put down.

I also point shoot with handguns using the sights. With a handgun, obviously it takes lots ... and lots ... and then lots more practice, to achieve the same effect, but it's possible. Other than in a phone booth, proper shot placement is better than a quickly fired miss!

When I was doing a lot of handgun hunting in my younger days with everything including a .22, .357, .45 Colt, .44 Mag or .454 Casull, I used to burn up a hell of a lot of ammunition prior to each hunt and at least weekly in between hunts. Also note that all of these handguns are single-actions. They point better than most other revolvers. I've shot game with different double-action revolvers as well, but that was with the Ruger SP101 I carried in Zim for back-up or with my partner's .357 Ruger Security-Six.

Practice! ... Practice!! ... Practice!!! ... Particularly if your life might depend on it.

I'll step down off of my soap box now!

Warmest regards,

JPS
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,228 Posts
If it comes to point and shoot, my 12 gauge is perfect, and makes much meat for me and mine.

Where I live the best pistol is a rifle, but for instinct or point shooting, for pistols, its hard to beat me 1917 Erfurt 9mm Luger, or just about any Luger.

Good point JPS, bad stuff happens fast.

Any other time or gun, I use the sights, even to look the Devil in the eye.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,170 Posts
Discussion Starter #32
@ JPS, that there is a whole new dimension of point and shoot.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,005 Posts

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
48,511 Posts
Easy sighted..rear screw used pee sight ..stick on shotgun glow worm sight..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,170 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
Per your comment Estaban, you might find this thread from the Hunting Forum informative. The topic of this thread and my comments above are born out in real life, NOT as speculation or based on theory.

Hope you enjoy the read! ;>)

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?94823-Double-lion-charge-PHOTOS-amp-Story-Restored!

Regards,

JPS
Those are some nice doubles. And quite expensive. I could buy a house for what some of those babys go for. Take out a mortgage on it. haha

I will read it, I like a good hunting story. Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,170 Posts
Discussion Starter #37
Here's the new and unissued Daisy Quick-Kill BB Gun I referenced above. Note the lack of sights.











Now thats a beauty. How powerful is it do you know?

I just bought a Benjamin Trail in .177 cal. for plinking around the house. That thing will nearly go through a 1/2 in piece of plywood at 30ft.
 

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
48,511 Posts
It ant no Benjamin for power.
.if like older ones..
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
10,377 Posts
Now thats a beauty. How powerful is it do you know?

I just bought a Benjamin Trail in .177 cal. for plinking around the house. That thing will nearly go through a 1/2 in piece of plywood at 30ft.
I haven’t shot either of the two I have but to the best of my knowledge and belief they’re neither more “powerful” than similar Daisy BB guns or less so. I thinks it’s safe to assume that the Red Ryder lever actions most of us grew up using would differ very little from a Quick-Kill example other than having sights.
 

·
Diamond with Oak Clusters Bullet Member
Joined
·
57,805 Posts
I haven’t shot either of the two I have but to the best of my knowledge and belief they’re neither more “powerful” than similar Daisy BB guns or less so. I thinks it’s safe to assume that the Red Ryder lever actions most of us grew up using would differ very little from a Quick-Kill example other than having sights.
A 10/22 with a suppressor works better.;)
 
21 - 40 of 114 Posts
Top