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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I'm curious to hear experiences from you fellow Gunboards members.

Yesterday I took out my Polish AKMS in 100 meters range. I mostly shot Barnaul made 7.62x39mm 123gr FMJ ammo and I zeroed the sights with it. Just for "academic curiosity" I threw in a one left over box of yellow label Wolf ammo.

For a big surprise, the Wolf POI difference compared to similar Barnaul ammo was about 15 inches to 7 o'clock (sic!)!

No alterations were made to the sights or the rifle.

Anybody ever experinced anything similar with that significant change between different btand but otherwise similar ammo?

I haven't tried yet M43 PS surplus ammo yet (because my local range has banned steel core ammo...), but what do you think? Is the exterior ballistics of the m43 PS bullet more closer Wolf or Barnaul made bullet? I presume both brands use m67 bullet so it would be difficult to estimate the performace or similarity. But again, for that "academic curiosity"...
 

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I think it's fairly common for different ammo to print differently from one another.That's why reloaders usually go through several different types of powders and bullets finding that "sweet"load.
 

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Yes, I too have noticed this phenomenon with my WASR-10. With me it was Remington vs Wolf, both at 122-123 gr. Then I got out the 154 gr Wolf and it was VERY low. It would be interesting to try the same tests with an SKS to see if the gun sensitivity is the issue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I think it's fairly common for different ammo to print differently from one another.
One or few inches is normal, but POI difference of about 15 inches seems to be pretty insane and beyond normal limits. Especially because both ammo are quite similar if you check the specifications.

By the shoulder touch, Barnaul products seem to have slightly hotter loadings.
 

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Also, I don't think they use M67 flat base projectiles. M43 boat-tailed with a lead core is the norm. The only common M67 bulleted ammo in the U.S. is the Yugoslavian surplus. I'm not sure if it is available in Finland but its pretty decent ammo. Barnaul is far superior to Wolf/Tula/539 in my opinion & experience.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Also, I don't think they use M67 flat base projectiles. M43 boat-tailed with a lead core is the norm. The only common M67 bulleted ammo in the U.S. is the Yugoslavian surplus. I'm not sure if it is available in Finland but its pretty decent ammo.
Excellent Point Norinco and thank you for your comment. I've been reading your posts for a whiles, and I'm impressed how your messages often show high level of expertice and knowledge of the subject discussed.

If I remember right (I don't have the literature references available at the moment), m43 7n13 bullet is longer than m67 bullet because of the lighter steel core. In the other words, m67 is shorter because of the heavier lead fill. I presume that if you take 7n13 PS jacket and fill it with lead instead of steel core, you will get a bullet which is heavier that 120-125gr, which is pretty standard weight in commercial, milspec and surplus 7.62x39mm fmj ammo these days.

Take a look at the following link. Most likely you know it allready.

http://www.lesjones.com/2005/06/09/airspace-in-762x39mm-bullets/

As you can see, there are differences in 7.62x39mm commercial bullets. Some jackets are longer, most likely 7n13 PS styled like you said and some are shorter, maybe m67 style. Seating depths and especially fillings also vary. Some have different size airspace, some have not. Some other sources (like wikipedia...) also claim that commercial russian 7.62x39mm manufacturers use "modified" m67 bullets on their ammunition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x39mm#M67




To check out the ammo I have in my ammo safe, I took different cartidges and pulled out the bullets.

- On the left is non-magnetic Wolf 123gr fmj bullet. It seems to have 7n13 jacket with lead core. Lenght is about 26.5mm

- In the middle is Hungarian 1963 made M43 7n13 PS bullet. Typical combloc surplus sold here in Finland under the name of "Leader" brand. Steel core is visible at the bottom of the bullet. Lenght is about 27mm.

-On the right is Barnaul made 123gr fmj bullet. Flat base without hollow bottom like in "airspace" picture. Lenght is about 24mm.







I also took my Dremel and cut off the tip of the barnaul bullet. It had a small air space on the tip.








If you compare the barnaul bullet to the one in the "airspace" picture, the bullet I have has airspace on the tip and it doesn't have the hollow base. Based on the previous observations (shorter than 7n13, flat based and hollow tip bullet), I presume that Barnaul and maybe other russian commercial 7.62x39mm manufacturers use more or less often m67 styled bullet on their cartridges. I don't know how common phenomenon that is and there might be differences in bullets between different batches of ammunition. It's also possible that airspace is used as a tool to control the buller weight, especially when longer 7n13 PS styled jackets are used during the bullet manufacture process.

Barnaul is far superior to Wolf/Tula/539 in my opinion & experience.
Same here. Unbeatable price-quality ratio. This goes to x54R, 9x19mm and other centerfire ammo too in my experience.
 
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