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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys!

I have always liked the looks of a full sized battle rifle (vs a carbine). One of my favorites is the GEW 98, with a particular fondness for the Lange rear sight.

Through my abortive, and not very comprehensive research, I have found two other rifles that bear this same feature; the VZ98 and the Peruvian rework of the Argentinian 1891 Mauser.

Are there any other Mauser rifles that used this sight?

The Gew 98 is well documented, and I have seen the history of the VZ98 discussed. However, is there anyone who can enlighten me on the history of the 1891 rework?

Thanks!
 

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As I seem to recall, the use of the Lange sight by the German government was largely driven by MONEY. Lange was "connected" and received a "small" amount for each sight made/installed. IMHO it's a poor sight, just too bloody big. The best sight was the tangent sight that Mauser developed in 1902. Since ALL the sights had to be replaced in 1903 anyway, it escapes me why they didn't go to the much better Mauser design?.......Oh, I forgot about the MONEY....not to mention the fact that Mauser was not exactly "connected".

Why others used it, I guess it was there? (maybe their math was bad and the Lange matched their ballistics well enough and they didn't need to design a new tangent ramp...?)

Bottom line. Did the Lange offer very much over the older initial Mauser ladder sight? Probably not?

If the Germans would have simply let Mauser alone they would have been better off and we would have been spared the 88 abortion too...

But they weren't alone.....The US could have had a Mauser in 1892/93 and we could have been spared the Krag.

OH well......

Jack
 

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Are there any other Mauser rifles that used this sight?

The Gew 98 is well documented, and I have seen the history of the VZ98 discussed. However, is there anyone who can enlighten me on the history of the 1891 rework?
The Peruvian M1909 had a Lange sight. Presumably the Peruvians liked it because when they replaced the M1891 sights for spitzer (Spitzgeschoss) ammo, they used the Lange sight. Also the Spanish M1916 first pattern had a roller coaster sight that was similar to a Lange in appearance.

Regards,
Bill
 

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But they weren't alone.....The US could have had a Mauser in 1892/93 and we could have been spared the Krag.
But the Krag is such a cool rifle! :p

What rifle was the US examining back in 1892/93? Presumably the Mauser M93s that the Spanish were using back then?
 

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US Army trials in 1892. Maybe 10-12 rifles tested including 4 different Mausers. One was basic 1889 and others were M1891/92 variants. All inline mags,. the staggered 1893 was yet to come. One of the Mausers and the Krag were found good enough but the Krag was chosen.

See "Crown Jewels" notes on Swede 1892 trials......they had similar issues with the Mauser design. Paul Mauser was able to make timely changes and ship modified designs to Sweden in time to address their issues. This could not be done during the US trials and the Krag won out.....indeed it gave the US what they wanted. Note, rapid fire was NOT what the US was looking for as a cut-off had to be included on all designs. The US also insisted on a rimmed cartridge so even if the staggered 1893 mag. would have been around, it would have been problematic with a rimmed cartridge....

Note that Spain adopted the M1892 with a new inline magazine. A few 100 carbines were made but it doesn't seem any rifles reached production as the staggered mag. came forth and Spain made the change for production rifles by 1893.

What a difference a year makes!

Again,

Oh well
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Thanks for the replies guys. I realize the latter sights were MUCH better, I just like the Industrial Age look of the Lange sights (if only there were some big BRASS parts on them). Of course, I like the looks of the M3 Grant/Lee tanks too, something about big castings and rivets. Go figure!

So, there are basically 4 models of rifles with the Lange sights: Gew 98, VZ98/22 (early model), the Peruvian rebuild of the Argentinian 1891, and the Spanish 1916 (well, Lange like, if you can find one that hasn't been updated).
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Syntax

Ah! I forgot about the Peruvian 1909! I think this rifle, and the Argentinian 1909 are some of the most attractive rifles every made! When I was a teenager, my Dad had a 1909 Argy, perfect and totally matching. I don't know what he did with it, but it was just amazing!
 

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Yeah, I really have to get a DWM Argentinean Contract M1909 to complement the Mauser Oberndorf Peruvian Contract M1909. It seems like 1909 was a great year for rifles, since these South American Mauser rifles are just absolutely beautiful! And they use the same ammunition! ;)
 

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You all forgot the Kar98 (first versions, 1900 to 1905); These had a miniature version of the Lange sight...but the Kar was dropped in 1905-6 because it was Too short, and Too flashy/blasty...and with the Kar98AZ they adopted Mauser's M1902 Patttern rear sight.


Regards,
Doc AV
 

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You all forgot the Kar98 (first versions, 1900 to 1905); These had a miniature version of the Lange sight...but the Kar was dropped in 1905-6 because it was Too short, and Too flashy/blasty...and with the Kar98AZ they adopted Mauser's M1902 Patttern rear sight.


Regards,
Doc AV
Hi Doc,
Good catch....here are a few pictures of one of the early Kar 98's, and another Lange-sighted Gew 98 not mentioned so far, the 7.65 m/m Paraguayan M1907. The Polish-made Gew 98 (Warsaw Arsenal, circa 1924), called the "Wz.98" also used the Lange sight.
Regards,
John
 

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Hi Doc,
Good catch....here are a few pictures of one of the early Kar 98's, and another Lange-sighted Gew 98 not mentioned so far, the 7.65 m/m Paraguayan M1907. The Polish-made Gew 98 (Warsaw Arsenal, circa 1924), called the "Wz.98" also used the Lange sight.
Regards,
John
Oh wow, the early Kar 98 is one of my holy grail rifles. Do you have one of those in your collection, John? I'd love to see more pictures of it!
 

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Thanks for the replies guys. I realize the latter sights were MUCH better, I just like the Industrial Age look of the Lange sights (if only there were some big BRASS parts on them). Of course, I like the looks of the M3 Grant/Lee tanks too, something about big castings and rivets. Go figure!
That's a very valid comparison. Both the sights and the tanks were made using early, less effective technology - and both were overbuilt as if that would make up for their deficiencies.

Regards,
Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
OK, to be honest, I had it in my head to start a collection based solely on the Lange sight. I can only imagine what it would cost to track down a few of those. However, given the narrow focus and limited numbers of such a collection, the high cost of some pieces would not make it impossible on a blue collar kind of guy like me!

Bill

"That's a very valid comparison. Both the sights and the tanks were made using early, less effective technology - and both were overbuilt as if that would make up for their deficiencies."

The same could be said for Jean Harlot and Jane Mansfield, but I still think they were hot! ;)
 

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The same could be said for Jean Harlot and Jane Mansfield, but I still think they were hot! ;)
Jean Harlow you mean?

Bit of a Freudian slip. :)
 

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Hi Guys!




.....is there anyone who can enlighten me on the history of the 1891 rework?

Thanks!
Original Peruvian-issued Argentinian 1891 rifles were of the last batches in the prefix s/n "S", "T", "U" & "W". Same gun as the Argentinians but with a lightly-stamped rather small (If compared to the one in the 1909s) Peruvian crest.

These were virtually the 1st. smokeless powder bolt action "modern" rifles issued to the Peruvian Armed Forces (A small batch of Gew88s arrived first) and since the wounds of the war with Chile were still fresh, the '91s were rode hard, heavily used in target practice of both troops & civilian army-sponsored shooting clubs.

Peru 5.jpg

Original ammo was a round-nose 210gr. FMJ bullet, and locally VERY few examples of them (German-made) still survive. By 1910 newer Peruvian 1909 rifles arrived to our shores using a better performing pointed-nose bullet with a flatter trajectory.
Such ballistic improvement and the fact that by then many of the 91s had their barrels worn-down compelled the Peruvian government to buy new barrels to replace the original ones, and change the sights of the rifles to newer ones with the correct trajectory scale. Apparently Mauser was by then overwhelmed by local & foreign contracts and being unable to fulfill the request, it was diverted to Swiss manufacturer Sig (Barrels were stamped "S.J.G.").

To avoid confusion and re-training of the troops with a different kind of sight (Assorted logistical details of equipment were in part blamed for the defeats in battle by the Chileans) , the "Lange" model was retained for the Sig-made new sights (Unlike the Argentinian 1891s refurbishing that only changed the scale of the original "ladder" sight); they are identical to the 1909s but show a smaller diameter rear sight base ring and no visible stamps or s/n.

1891s were refurbished locally (Probably 2/3 of the rifles were still usable). Guns were polished & re-finished (Thus partially or completely erasing many of the stamps), stocks were sanded, repaired and oiled, barrels & sights changed and handguards replaced. Once the overhauling project was finished they were mostly stored as strategic weapons reserve, and others were assigned to auxiliary units such as the police, firemen departments and (Later) Air Force troops (Paratroopers included)

peruparacaicap7.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
ADCC

Thank you for the information. Without the Internet, and forums like this, and those kind enough to share, such knowledge is almost impossible to find.
 
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