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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Just wondering what the experienced think about this badly pitted bolt face on my turked berthier carbine, turkish forestry carbine to be precise. As for the bolt head, are we talking replacement for shooting reloads? I really don't care what a bolt face "looks like", but frankly, I have never had a rifle bolt with this extensive of pitting over the whole face. I don't reload yet, and ponder what I should do about this bolt face, it is severely pitted, rest of the rifle is wonderful. Rifle is as pictured, only marked with Chatellerault MLE 1907 MD. Re-turk markings are T.C. Orman 1948
 

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It started life as a Berthier model 1907 "colonial rifle" according to your picture of the receiver, interesting but very sad to see it being disfigured into a Turkish Orman.

Is the serial number on the bolt matching the number on the barrel and magazine? if original, the prefix letter should either be A, B or C. and the possible year of built of an original barrel is 1908 to 1915.

is there a capital N stamped on top of both the barrel and receiver at their junction?

The pitting of the bolt face is not significant, is the bolt locking snug in the receiver or is there some play when locked?, check the head space, it should not be in excess of 2.30mm.

Avoid shooting old surplus ammo, some of it is machine gun ammo loaded with a heavy 235gr bullet over the same powder load as the rifle cartridge with the 198gr D bullet.
 

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Nice gun...

I don't see any severe pitting. The bolt face is just a wee bit uneven. ;-)

Seriously, my Turkish Berthier's bolt head face looks similar. The bolt head is massive and this has no bearing on functionality nor safety.

Carcano
 

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My thoughts exactly to bad they converted a 1907 rifle .
In original condition it would be worth about 4 times what a turk
carbine brings . I would shoot it bolt head looks just fine
mcgoo
 

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This is a very interesting rifle.
Of all the 5 or 6000 rifles that were converted by the Turks it appears that there was a very high concentration of 1907
I have in my collection one of those, built just before the conversion to 1907/15, and I have seen at least 5 more. Is it an indication that those converted Turkish rifles are coming from an area where there was an high concentration of tirrailleurs Senegalais?They are usually mismatched, the Turks renumbered them and renumbered the bolt to their new number. The French number is hidden under the shroud that is soldered on the rear of the barrel. Those rifles are generally N proofed.
Here is one that sold last week
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=78679705
All the turk rifles had the straight bolt, I do not believe that the carbine bolt is original to the turk.
What make this rifle even more interesting is the MD marking. I have seen the MD on carbines and mousquetons , on 1902 indochinois but never on a full length rifle.
The MD has never been seen on Lebels, and when the 1907/15 appeared they had stopped the practice of stamping that mark.
Nice piece
Best regards
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Thanks folks, I guess I won't need to go on that big hunt for a replacement bolt head. The receiver is stamped with a faint "N", as barely noticeable in the pic of the receiver top. Bolt body number is returked restamped matching to receiver, 4600 range. I haven't taken the rifle apart to see anymore numbers yet. The bolt isn't loose in the receiver, seems okay in the lockup, and the breech and bore look excellent.

That is interesting about the MD marking, it was something I hadn't seen on all my other searches. As soon as I can, the gunshop has 1 or 2 more french rifles with bayonets I need to look at, this one only cost me $85.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks everyone with the information, ironically and unfortunately I am gonna have to sell it and everything I put on my credit card in the last few months due to financial concerns that came up today. I hate talking about a rifle then it gets seen for sale some place, makes me wanna go throw money away for lottery tickets.
 

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I could not find another way to get in contact with you but If and when you decide to sell I would be very interested.
Best regards
 

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I am trying to pull together a few threads that treat these interesting, but underresearched conversions. Maybe you can help me.

1. All that I have personally seen so far seem to have a bolt with a short handle that has been slightly bent down. (Added: I have however now seen two photos of carbines with the long sharply bent-down handle).

2. I have integral bolts that were apparently just bent down, but also one where the bolt handle was a separate piece (ball drilled and set on a stub).

3. All guns seem to have received new numbering on the left chamber side of the receiver, the last two (or three?) digits of which are repeated on the bolt head *or* the bolt rib?

4. One gun shows a third numbering (sharp and recent) below the T.C. ORMAN 1948 inscription, repeated on the bolt handle base. Was this maybe added by a US importer?

5. I have not seen any special signs on the stocks.

6. All rear sights were wiggly to the sides.

7. Accuracy of all three guns that I have tested (with old milsurp Balle N from 1949, tips filed) was *bad*, in spite of decent barrels with strong grooves and lands. :-(. Added: one shot better with Kynoch-made "Balle M", in spite of very bad gas blowback.

8. Both "blue finish" and "light phosphatized over old blue" were encountered. Is the latter an exception?

9. Most bolts seem to have been left in the white, but the phosphatized gun has the bolt treated too.

Carcano
 

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Pics of my Turked Berthier

Hopefully this will help out.

That is a capital and italicized "N" above the receiver marking BTW
 

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bertier turkey

mine seems to be well worn blue,the finger grooves almost worn off.
St Etienne Mle 1907 15,bent short handle.N-TC-ORMAN-1948 4070
BOLT=4070-handle M6488.front band looks like 1891 mauser.??
supposed to be turkish forestry service.:rolleyes:--:D--:D--:D
shoots good but kicks like mule mg 236 gr.much better with reloads.
 

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Bolt handle types

I have to correct a previous statement of mine (no. 1). As to the bolt, I have now seen today examples (new numbers matching) that showed a long, bent-down bolt handle (mosqueton type). It would be interesting to check whether these were two different conversion batches by the Turks...

Carcano
 

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Here is an Italian photo of three Turkish Berthier forestry carbines from EuroArms, one below the other, which very nicely shows the different bolt handles.

Carcano
 
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