[crazy]

i have a question for the gurus out there ,,what should a guy expect to pay for a correct 1937 dated pem izhevsk sniper ,,matching serial numbers on rifle and appeares correct from reading vics sniper page ,,on the early snipers were the scopes numbered to match the rifles serial number? i've seen later models with individual scope numers stamped on the rifle that isn't always the same serial number as the rifles serial number,,anything i should be looking for that would make it correct or not ? there aren't any SA markings on the rifle and also no import stamps ,,a friend of mine is looking at it and he's looking at it as an addition for his german sniper collection so he 's not intrested in it as a resale item ,,but he wants a original rifle with the corect scope ,,any ideas or things you'd look for ? thanks guys and i know when it comes to mosins your the best !
crazy

 

[Vic]

Well the scopes were not matched to the rifles at that time frame but the mounts matched to the base on the gun. 1937 Izhevsk? That gives me a serious Spock eyebrow as Tula was the manufacturer at that time and although one or two Izhevsk's of 1937 have shown up Ive been leery of them. Price range on a correct top mount PE with nice scope-what your willing to pay for it but expect between 2500 and 3500 if correct Id venture.

 

[Joop]

I'm also suspicious of any pre-war dated Izhevsk sniper. That's not to say that they don't/didn't exist, but they're so non-typical that one would have to provide quite a bit of evidence to convince me that it was the real deal. Now, if that person also has a knack for selling a bunch of other "non-typical" sniper rifles with all kinds of evidence of possible "enhancements", my BS meter goes through the ceiling. To put it bluntly; If the source of this rifle is what I think it is, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

My .02

John

 

[mike radford]

Definitely avoid Eagle, ID. Also agree on any pre-42 big scope sniper from Izhevsk must be guilty until strong evidence of authenticity.

The original scopes, bases and mounts are pretty valuable. If they are original you could pay for them and use them rescope a legit ex-PEM, like one of the scopeless Finns ideally.

 

[Joop]

Eagle, ID is a given. But, I'm not talking about him.

 

[mjmd]

a pem, imo, is worth at a minimum, the sum of its original parts ..original matching rifle import marked and refurbed, $150-$250? depending on year , correct legit original matching non import marked sniper rifle non refurbed $400-$800+/-, correct ww2 sniper bolt +$250, original side mount base $400-,$600 +/- original side scope mount $800-$1600, Original PE scope $800-$2000, original PEM scope depending on year $600-$900.. These are approximations... original refurb/import marked $2600 with all original parts +/-... non import with all orginal correct parts $3500 +/-.then add collector motivation on this one because the 37 thing, bolt and unmatched mount are ????so it would be a big minus off the 3500.

This niche is undervalued imo when it comes to non import marked original ww2 pem and PE rifles given their rarity here as compard to , lets say, ww2 german snipers. In most cases orginal non import marked mosin sniper rifles in original config ,are far rarer than their equivelent german counterparts in this country. But alas Mosin Snipers are a Hyundai like niche market..

 

[mike radford]

a pem, imo, is worth at a minimum, the sum of its original parts ..original matching rifle import marked and refurbed, $150-$250? depending on year , original matching non import marked rifle non refurbed $400-$800+/-, correct ww2 sniper bolt +$250, original side mount base $400-,$600 +/- original side scope mount $800-$1600, Original PE scope $800-$2000, original PEM scope depending on year $750-$1200.. These are approximations... original refurb/import marked $2600 with all original parts +/-... non import with all orginal correct parts $3500 +/-.then add collector motivation on this one. This niche is undervalued imo when it comes to non import marked original ww2 pem and PE rifles given their rarity here as compard to , lets say, ww2 german snipers. In most cases orginal non import marked mosin sniper rifles in original config ,are far rarer than their equivelent german counterparts in this country. But alas Mosin Snipers are a Hyundai like niche market.. The rifle Joop refers to would go much higher if there were not reservations regarding it's authenticity among some well heeled collectors.

Mostly agree with what you say, but Hyundai is amazing stuff. I am on my third and my other half and my parents have goined in. Elantra kicked the competions butt again last test, including Civic and Toyota was last of the 6 in class. You should have seen the look on the Subaru WRX STI driver's face when he could no shake me off his butt in my lowly Elantra. Hyundai has shook the red head step child image for those in the know.

Mosins, especially the big scoped guns, will shake that image eventially. Having shot 2 PU's today and 3 of the mighty K98k's, the PU was the clear winner. All it takes to figure out these rifles are serious snipers is to shoot them. Put a PEM side by side with the average 03A4 at the range and see what most objective folks will see the PEM has many advantages.

 

[Fatherandersonthepaladin]

Seen it, not buying the authenticity.

Look at his other auction. A 1903 Springfield with a holy grail 1913 Musket scope on it AND a trench magazine (which isn't proper to the weapon in any way shape or form as the Springfield collectors can tell you)? Looks like a turd, walks like a turd, smells like a turd, but to cover his own bacon he wrote: "Can I garantee its authenticity, no, I cannot. The seller/collector at the time, an older gentleman, was convinced, that it was authentic and that's the way I bought it"

Sorry folks, but this guy's a grade A turdmonger.

 

[mjmd]

Mostly agree with what you say, but Hyundai is amazing stuff. I am on my third and my other half and my parents have goined in. Elantra kicked the competions butt again last test, including Civic and Toyota was last of the 6 in class. You should have seen the look on the Subaru WRX STI driver's face when he could no shake me off his butt in my lowly Elantra. Hyundai has shook the red head step child image for those in the know.

Mosins, especially the big scoped guns, will shake that image eventially. Having shot 2 PU's today and 3 of the mighty K98k's, the PU was the clear winner. All it takes to figure out these rifles are serious snipers is to shoot them. Put a PEM side by side with the average 03A4 at the range and see what most objective folks will see the PEM has many advantages.

I used that analogy mike because the car, like the rifle, is a yet to be discovered .It remains underappreciated , undervalued yet is a very functional , quality tool when compared to its competition and is far cheaper to acquire in the market than its competition.(although prices are jumping up now). Like Mosin big scope snipers vs, German snipers.

 

[mike radford]

I used that analogy mike because the car, like the rifle, is a yet to be discovered .It remains underappreciated , undervalued yet is a very functional , quality tool when compared to its competition and is far cheaper to acquire in the market than its competition.(although prices are jumping up now). Like Mosin big scope snipers vs, German snipers.

A good analogy and I get it. All three of my Hyundai's far exceeded my expectations from day one till the day I replaced them with another.

My Russian and Finn snipers do the same thing, exceed expectations, more consistently than any of the others. I keep expecting my 03A1 USMC's, 03A4's, M70's, M1C's, M1D's, LT, HT, Enfield T's, etc. to kick the Finn and Soviet snipers butts but seldom can they come close and rarely do better. The others have the reputation but the Mosins do not get the recognition that they merit.

 

[carol tenge]

Eagle, ID is a given. But, I'm not talking about him.

I saw the eagle guys snipers, yuck...... who then are you talking about. spit it out.

 

[crazy]

1937 sniper

thanks everybody,,this is the item i was talking about ,,http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=275275047 ,,it sure does look good ,,but from talking to vic he says this can't be correct because izhevsk wasn't produceing snipers pre war ..still a pretty impressive looking rifle ,,
crazy

 

[clayshooter2]

I would stay away from that one myself. If you look at other auctions the seller has going on, he is selling a WW1 US sniper and says upfront that he can not verify it is legit. I'm not saying the seller is trying to pull and Eagle ID by any means at all. I'm just saying if the seller is selling other rifles that he himself can not verify, he might not have verified this one either. It looks like a nice piece, but I would want an expert to verify/debunk it (which you did by asking Vic) before I would shell out that kind of cash myself.

 

[mike radford]

That rifle can not be authenticated. Like any other like that, it is worth the sum of its parts, if you want the parts. The Izhevsk PEM mount is the real deal, expensive and uncommon. The scope is also a real PEM. IMO the rifle is worth the opening bid of $2500 because of the parts. I traded a $2500 rifle, which I had much less in, for just a mount. Just a matter of what you want and how bad you want it. Show me another Izhevsk PEM mount for sale for a low price, if available at any price.

I do not believe this seller is on the level of Eagle ID. He apparently got some good items many years ago, and some not so good. I got an Izhevsk PEM mount from him years ago at a fair price. I got a rifle from him years ago and it was worth what I paid with real Tula PEM mount and real PEM scope. With Eagle ID, you get humped and pure BS. This guy apparently got some less than perfect examples and is moving them. This one is apparently the last, so last if often not best.

 

[crazy]

thanks guys for all the help,,
crazy

 

[Hlavinka]

That rifle can not be authenticated. Like any other like that, it is worth the sum of its parts, if you want the parts. The Izhevsk PEM mount is the real deal, expensive and uncommon. The scope is also a real PEM. IMO the rifle is worth the opening bid of $2500 because of the parts. I traded a $2500 rifle, which I had much less in, for just a mount.

I can't help but think the mount in the auction looks "embellished" because of those stamps. As a matter of fact, to my eye, the whole package looks "improved" or otherwise messed with. I've held three Ishevsk PEM mounts in my hands, including the one you traded for, and this one, in the auction, looks "improved" at the least.

 

[mjmd]

A good analogy and I get it. All three of my Hyundai's far exceeded my expectations from day one till the day I replaced them with another.

My Russian and Finn snipers do the same thing, exceed expectations, more consistently than any of the others. I keep expecting my 03A1 USMC's, 03A4's, M70's, M1C's, M1D's, LT, HT, Enfield T's, etc. to kick the Finn and Soviet snipers butts but seldom can they come close and rarely do better. The others have the reputation but the Mosins do not get the recognition that they merit.

a +2 response

 

[mike radford]

I can't help but think the mount in the auction looks "embellished" because of those stamps. As a matter of fact, to my eye, the whole package looks "improved" or otherwise messed with. I've held three Ishevsk PEM mounts in my hands, including the one you traded for, and this one, in the auction, looks "improved" at the least.

The mount could have been refurbished or refinished. Not sure about the markings on the front of the mount except that the Izhevsk proof is where it should be and looks like it should. The windage grids on the bottom of the mount are Izhevsk style. The windage grids on the top part of the mount look like mine except the center mark is longer.

Only an Izhevsk mount has the additional screw near the front rings on the upper half. Looks like an original mount. Some markings could have been added and the finish improved or simply refurbished. I can not say who changed the finish or markings, if they were, but the mount and scope are not fakes as far as I can tell.

 

[crazy]

wow,, alot of controversal comments on this one ,,when i looked at it i wondered about the A37 markings on the mount ,,i saw the izzy proof and that looks pretty hard to copy,,but the A37 was what thru me ..especially the 3+7 being in 2 different size stamps ,,this rifle is supposedly from germany back in the good old days before the importers had to stamp there calling card on all rifles imported into the country,,the seller did say he guarrentees it to be original ,,unlike the 1903 he clearly states he can't verify,,he's pretty pricy with his reserve,,but as a couple guys have said the parts are not cheap on the pem scopes and mounts anyway,,so i kinda think my friend is gonna get it ,,if it an original then i think he's gonna have a great item ,,but i can't see anyone ever knowing 100% if it's real or memorex..lol..it's the best i've seen if it's a fake ! just a question here ,,could the A37 be a year production proof ??and the guys who own pem mounts ,,are there any numbers simular marked on them??should the mount be numbered ? the scope is definatly dated 1937,,and the base looks correctly numbered to the rifle ,,is this correct for the sniper specs for rifles built in 1937,,my friend has talked to the owner and has definatly shown alot of intrest and i beleive he's gonna get it.. but it sure wiould be nice to have some factory documentation that corrisponds with the parts hanging on the rifle ,,lol,,but no one may ever know for sure ,,
thanks again everybody for the great info and comments
crazy

 

[mjmd]

wow,, alot of controversal comments on this one ,,when i looked at it i wondered about the A37 markings on the mount ,,i saw the izzy proof and that looks pretty hard to copy,,but the A37 was what thru me ..especially the 3+7 being in 2 different size stamps ,,this rifle is supposedly from germany back in the good old days before the importers had to stamp there calling card on all rifles imported into the country,,the seller did say he guarrentees it to be original ,,unlike the 1903 he clearly states he can't verify,,he's pretty pricy with his reserve,,but as a couple guys have said the parts are not cheap on the pem scopes and mounts anyway,,so i kinda think my friend is gonna get it ,,if it an original then i think he's gonna have a great item ,,but i can't see anyone ever knowing 100% if it's real or memorex..lol..it's the best i've seen if it's a fake ! just a question here ,,could the A37 be a year production proof ??and the guys who own pem mounts ,,are there any numbers simular marked on them??should the mount be numbered ? the scope is definatly dated 1937,,and the base looks correctly numbered to the rifle ,,is this correct for the sniper specs for rifles built in 1937,,my friend has talked to the owner and has definatly shown alot of intrest and i beleive he's gonna get it.. but it sure wiould be nice to have some factory documentation that corrisponds with the parts hanging on the rifle ,,lol,,but no one may ever know for sure ,,
thanks again everybody for the great info and comments
crazy

I cannot attest to its' originality or its' possible enhancement without inspecting the rifle in person and then discussing its key componets with friends, thus my reluctence to bid beyond the reserve. (a rule i use on most items over 3000 unless they are coming from people i know) I can say that it is well done either way. If original an amazing piece. With impeccable provenance a 7000-10000 rifle. Without it...the sum of it parts. It would be a shame to break it up real or enhanced. It is that well done. If it was in a niche as big as the luger or k98 collecting circles it would have sold for 10,000 even as a complete fabrication.