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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Paratrooper sling
Topic:
Topic author: jscott
Subject: Paratrooper sling
Posted on: 06/17/2005 10:39:20 PM
Message:
Playing with new camera
http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9324&stc=1&d=1191720457
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http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9325&stc=1&d=1191720457
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http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9326&stc=1&d=1191720457
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Replies:

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/18/2005 5:26:24 PM
Message:
Wow! Can this really be the correct sling for the T-2? Sure looks like it might be. The slings with the "bale" hooks were never convincing to me. Put one on a rifle with side swivels & shake it around a little and you are picking it up off the floor. You must, of course, sell this sling to me as soon as possible!

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 06/18/2005 5:53:35 PM
Message:
Looks like it maybe an equipment strap that was put on the rifle who knows when. That buckle just doesn't look like it belongs on a rifle sling.


Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/18/2005 6:08:58 PM
Message:
Party pooper! There has got to be a T-2 manual out there somewhere. If it's like my T-99 manual, we'll know what the proper sling looks like!


Reply author: Gregg
Replied on: 06/18/2005 6:46:07 PM
Message:
It looks like it might be a T96 or a T99 LMG sling.
Gregg


Reply author: jscott
Replied on: 06/18/2005 7:00:14 PM
Message:
This is not the first or only paratrooper to be seen with this sling on it,I have seen a number of them. Have owned a number of LMG slings none like this.


Scott

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/18/2005 9:20:46 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by jscott
This is not the first or only paratrooper to be seen with this sling on it,I have seen a number of them. Have owned a number of LMG slings none like this.
Scott
LMG slings have the Q.D. at each end. I've never seen an LMG sling that looks like this.

Reply author: tekidanki
Replied on: 06/18/2005 11:06:33 PM
Message:
Scott,

I have seen only 4 or 5 of these slings in 25 plus years of collecting Japanese rifles. All were on Type 2 paratrooper rifles. This is a rare sling.

This type of sling was on some Japanese Type 2 rifles that were captured on Leyte in late 1944. There are US official WWII photographs in the national archives that show this type of sling. The photos were reproduced in an article written by Edwin F. Libby. The article is entitled "Accessories for the Japanese Type 2 Paratrooper's Rifle" (see BANZAI, July 1993, p. 192). Although there is no proof that this sling was specifically designed for the Type 2, it is clear that the sling was used with the Type 2 in combat.

Greg

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 06/19/2005 10:15:40 AM
Message:
This discussion regarding correct sling for the type 2 paratrooper rifle has been posted numerous times. There probally is no one, 100% correct sling variation specifically designed for this rifle. Japanese utilized numerous types of slings on all their rifles. Some are more frequently encountered (wire bale hooks)than others which may lend credance as to which is "correct". As far as I know there are no period, Japanese photos showing detailed views of any slings in use. As for U.S. military photos, there have been many I.D. mistakes such as so called navy "suicide boat" helmets being identified incorrectly as bomb disposal helmets etc. As Rob brings up, most of all variant slings (both bale hooks & quick detach clips) are a poor fit. The sling depicted above has numerous unique elements which stand out such as leather strip on sling end & strange buckle most frequently seen on equipment straps and is a norrow fit on the quick detach clip.


Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 06/19/2005 10:30:55 AM
Message:
I attach a photo that I took off of one of my books I bought during my last trip to Tokyo. It shows the T-2 rifle and the T-100 submachine gun used by paratroopers with the canvas sling. Note the distinct buckle used on the slings on both guns and same as the one jscott owns.


http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9327&stc=1&d=1191720457

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Reply author: davef
Replied on: 06/19/2005 11:05:25 AM
Message:
Looks good to me....On a slightly OT note...why does a suicide boat pilot need a helmet? safety equipment for suicide seems a oxymoron.


Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 06/19/2005 12:12:23 PM
Message:
Dave, as far as the Navy Shinyo boats and the Army Maru-Re tei boats were concerned, these initially came out (mid 1944) before the true "suicide" concept of the Kamikaze Tokko-tai came into being (early 1945). The boats were in reality made for "no chance of return" missions, but protocol was that the boat operators were meant to either jump out in the last moment, or for the Army Maru-Re, to fling the mine out and swerve away in the last moment, either of which were totally inpractical but "offically" was the procedure, hence you get a helmet.
In the final phase of the war, when the Tokko (which is short for Tokubetsu Kogeki meaning Special Attack) concept kicked in, all the escape protocols for the boats were officially dropped.


Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 06/19/2005 12:22:28 PM
Message:
Interesting photos!Are the photos from U.S. army or Japanese military? Are these the photos Greg mentions?


Reply author: tekidanki
Replied on: 06/19/2005 12:40:31 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by Jareth
As for U.S. military photos, there have been many I.D. mistakes such as so called navy "suicide boat" helmets being identified incorrectly as bomb disposal helmets etc.
Jareth,

I agree that many ID mistakes have been made in the past, but this fact is not relevant to my previous post.

In my previous post, I said "it is clear that the sling was used with the Type 2 in combat." This historical fact is documented through a 1944-dated US Army Signal Corps photo. (See the photo in Edokko's post.) Signal Corps photographers routinely took pictures of recently captured enemy equipment for intelligence purposes. The photo speaks for itself.

Based on the Signal Corps photographic evidence, I have no reservations in saying that Scott's sling is CORRECT for the Type 2 paratrooper rifle. Note that I am not saying that this is THE Type 2 sling, because as I noted in my previous post "there is no proof that this sling was specifically designed for the Type 2."

Happy father's day.

Greg


Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/19/2005 12:49:51 PM
Message:
Very interesting photos! Looks like the T-2 halves are wrapped to protect the joining parts. Japanese slings will probably always be somewhat of a mystery. The manuals, I think, would be the final word as to what sling was intended for each type rifle. Like I've said before - I think we, as collectors, try to be more correct than the Japanese were as to sling use. My biggest problem with the wire bale slings is gravity. They just don't want to stay on a side swivel rifle.

Reply author: okha
Replied on: 06/19/2005 1:15:39 PM
Message:
This sling comes on the LMG too! Just purchased a LMG from another person who picked it out of the vets garage, it has the same sling (type 99 LMG).


Reply author: okha
Replied on: 06/19/2005 1:16:42 PM
Message:
This sling comes on the LMG too! Just purchased a LMG from another person who picked it out of the vets garage, it has the same sling (type 99 LMG).


Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 06/19/2005 1:45:06 PM
Message:
Rob, if someones opened the bale hooks too wide they do fall off. If there squeezed tight as issued they stay on especially if the weight of the rifle is hung off them.


Reply author: tekidanki
Replied on: 06/19/2005 3:09:28 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by Jareth
Interesting photos!Are the photos from U.S. army or Japanese military? Are these the photos Greg mentions?
Jareth,

Yes, the bottom picture in Edokko's post is the US official (Army Signal Corps) photo that I referenced previously. I believe the top photo in Edokko's post is also a Signal Corps photo.

Greg

Reply author: jscott
Replied on: 06/19/2005 6:24:25 PM
Message:
Wow I have been out all day laying paver bricks needed a strap to carry them with and being Jareth deemed "THE SLING" an ordinary equipment strap I almost took it off the rifle and used it. After reading more post glad I didn't use it.

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 06/19/2005 10:12:43 PM
Message:
You should of used it.
Overheard 1944 Signal Corps photographers "Hey Joe, these look boring without slings. Go get that paving stone equipment strap over there. Yeah that looks legit" Snap.

 
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