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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I will unite this thread with the earlier one...

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tedley
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 7:44:10 PM
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Wonder if these were supplied by the Germans to the Turks or were some of those 8mm guns the Arabs had?
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From: DEBKAfile: "Olmert greets Rice with further concessions for Abbas despite discovery of Palestinian fraud over Israel amnesty."

August 1, 2007, 2:50 PM (GMT+02:00)


[World War I Italian carbine- original webpage had small M91 Carcano pic embedded]

It has come to light, according to our military sources, that the weapons handed in two weeks ago by 168 Fatah-al Aqsa Brigade terrorists in return for immunity from Israel military pursuit were World War I vintage Italian carbines left behind by Turkish troops when they quit the country in 1917 and Mauser rifles from the 1930s. None of the terrorists surrendered their personal side-arms according to their pledge.

The furious demand from Israeli commanders that the government tell the public how it was conned was turned down by prime minister Ehud Olmert and defense minister Ehud Barak. They were deaf to the arguments that the amnestied Palestinian terrorists remain fully armed and able to resume attacks at any time and that Palestinian leaders, who refuse to admit to the fraud, have nothing but contempt for their agreements with Israel.

Nonetheless, DEBKAfile’s Jerusalem sources reveal that Olmert plans to inform US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice when they meet Wednesday, Aug. 1, of two new concessions for Abbas’ Fatah regime.

1. Israel will for the first time permit officers of the Palestinian Badr force, which is part of the Jordanian army, to enter the Was Bank. Each entrant must be personally cleared by President Bush’s security coordinator Gen. Keith Dayton. Olmert refused Abbas’ request to admit the entire Badr force.

2. Israel will waive special permits for Palestinian officers and men traveling to Egypt and Jordan for military training. DEBKAfile’s sources report that the IDF and Shin Bet are against this concession because it denies them the resource for keeping track of the travelers and leaves them free to build contacts with outside terrorist agents.



DocAV
Posted - 08/02/2007 : 11:34:41 PM
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Italian Carcano carbines in Palestine (Israel/Jordan--Palestine disappeared in 1948).
Italian Carabinieri were attached to Wavell's Force of Brits and Aussies in Palestine in 1917, for Policing duties (Military and Civil) and they were armed with Carcano M91 carbines. Some individual examples may have "disappeared" then.

2. The Turks received, in 1919-1920, a quantity of Italian Carcanos from the evacuating Italian troops which had been occupying southern Turkey under the Allied Post-WW I occupation (read the Biography of Ataturk and several other texts refering to the 1919-1921 occupation of Turkey by the British, French and Italians)...the Italians, slighted at Versailles and other Peace Treaty conferences, had a bit of its own back when it left Turkey, by "forgetting" its small arms, which the demobilised Turks used to re-establish their Sovreignity in the formerly occupied Italian Sector (to keep the duplicitous French and English out as well, and moreover, to convince them that
they should vacate Turkish soil as well, and leave Turkey to the Turks.
I have NO information that Austria supplied captured Carcanos to the Turks at all...they converted a lot to use themselves with 6,5MS ammo of which they had large quantities in Austria. The Germans in the main did not front Italian troops in Europe(except for Rommel's unit at Caporetto in 1917), and in anycase, this German unit was part of the Austrian Field Force, and any captured Carcanos would have been absorbed by the Austrian ordnance System.

In any case, there is no further information as to the fate of the "Occupation" Carcanos, but given that the Turks traded off any rifle which didn't fit their "Mauser" persuasion, either by design or Conversion) they sold off to Finland the Mosin Nagants; the Carcanos may have gone either back to Italy, or sold to ??China?? through Italian Intermediaries...there are records of about 60-80,000 Carcano M91s(Rifle and carbines) Being sold by Italian Dealers to China in the late 1920s...who knows whether these were the "Turkish" ones, or a part of them.

1940-45, Palestine (under British Mandate) did have large quantities of captured North African Carcanos used by both the Jewish Settlement Police (organised by Orde Wingate, of the Burmese Chindit fame later)and the British Jewish Brigade for training and also acquired by devious means, during the lead up to Independance, quantites of Surplus(spoils of war) Carcanos for use in the Seige of Jerusalem (Photos in IDF History Publication, 91TS used both for training during WWII, and later as Portal-arms in the home-made "armoured Trucks" used on the new Road to the Holy City.
It seems that after the 1948 war, they disappeared into the woodwork (sold off, Kibbutz weapons, trade off to Bedouin traders, etc.)

The "8mm so called" Carcanos were for training in Egypt and possibly Syria, were single shot, and were made up POST WW II as a "makework" lot by Franchi and other Italian Gunmakers. Some may have trickled through to the PLO etc between 1950s and 1970s.(When they were surplussed by Egypt, when they left the Soviet Fold.)



tedley
Posted - 08/02/2007 : 11:54:15 PM
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+It didn't say what caliber these were, which made me wonder if they weren't some of the 8mm guns from Arab sources. I've heard that some of Lawrence's Bedoins in WWI were armed with Arisakas. The Brits didn't want them to have a handy source for ammo after the war ended, and could keep them on a bit of a leash, ammo-wise, during the war.



DocAV
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 02:29:40 AM
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As to Lawrence's Arabs, they soon ditched the Arisakas in favour of stolen SMLEs and captured Turk Mausers...which goes to show that Gun Control by Ammunition control just doesn't work, especially with a free-living and independant people like the desert Arabs (Born with a gun in one hand, and a knife in the other.).



Story
Posted - 08/09/2007 : 09:19:59 AM
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Another potential source was Italian East Africa, which surrendered to Commonwealth forces in 1941. COL Icks (of Aberdeen Ordnance Museum fame) took a US Army Ordnance Company into Asmara in 1942 and promptly armed themselves with ex-German K98s (since they were similar to the 1903 Springfields the Ordnance men were trained on).

Anyway, the hundreds of thousands of surrendered Italian weapons were processed - some went to arm Indian training units. Others showed up post-war in Yemen.

So, who knows?
 
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