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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
DocAV indulged in a seductive fantasy. A fantasy so beautiful that it shall be conserved...:

DocAV
Posted - 03/05/2004 : 11:35:14 PM
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I have a few moments to spare (it's Saturday) and as I was scanning the Carcano Board, a large lateral thought sprung up in my brain...

What would make up the ULTIMATE Carcano Collection?

Here's what I have put together (in cyberspace) as my goal, should I live that long and have that much money.

A selection of the Proto-type Acceptance Trials Rifles ( Mauser, Torino, Terni, Torre Annunciata, in both Rimmed and Rimless 6,5mm)

One each of the Final Trials rifles (By Terni and Torino)

One each of pre-1899 manufacture M1891 Long Rifles, with original Bolts (as in small extractor) by Torino, Torre Annunciata, and Terni.

One each of the Cav Car and TS made pre-1899 by Beretta? or the other
Carbine/Short rifle makers.

One each of all the pre-1914 Rifles and Carbines etc, with the post 1907 Bolt; matching Nos if possible (short period when bolts were numbered to gun)( Only Terni, Beretta and the FNA factories remained, Torino and TA had been closed out of Rifle making, and reverted to other ordnance)

WW I production: One each of Terni, Beretta,FNA-B, ***-SE, ROMA, and MIDA, both long and short as may be;

Field conversions of TS rifles to side slings etc.

Austrian capture "It.u.Gr." marking, "AZF" stamping.

Any with Post WW I Czech acceptance/district marking

Post WW I: Chinese issue Long M91 (years 1924-26)

M1891/24 TS Conversion (several sight variants)

M1928 TS ( standardised new production, with double sling swivels and standard M91 Rifle bayonet stud)

M1928 TS LB (grenade launching Attachment on side)

"M1891/37" Cav carb. ( Round barrel shank instead of Faceted, with adj. rear sights)

1930s Beretta produced M91 Long Rifle

"Corrazieri Del Re" Gilded M91 cav carb. with Socket bayonet ( Royal Guard parade carbines)
"Duca D'Aosta" Guard M91 cav carbines
"Moschettieri del Duce" MVSN Black carbines

M38 First model 7,35 Fucile Corto (Terni)
M38 TS and M38 cav carbine 7,35mm (Terni and Beretta)
M38 Second (definitive Model) 7,35mm Fucile Corto (Terni and Beretta)

M91/38 series in 6,5mm, with New receivers and with recycled receivers.

M40 Trials Shortened Long rifle (dial aperture sights)Terni
M41 definitive Issue Long Rifle with standard rear sights."FAT" (Terni) ArmaGuerra Cremona, and "Unmarked".

1941 British-capture M91s given to Dutch East Indies and subsequently absorbed into INA (Indonesian National Army--Japanese Puppet force)
1941 British India use Carcanos, probably training and maybe, Burma Front?
Any Carcanos with possible Greek markings (Post WW II)
Any Carcanos with Post-1948 Israeli markings

Any Carcanos with Turkish markings (Post WW I Italian Occupation Force in Southern Turkey---they "Lost" a lot of their rifles when they left amicably after a deal with Ataturk.)

7,9mm "S" Krieghoff Conversion (Southern Austria manufacture)
7,9mm "S" (Date uncertain) Export to Middle East FC or CC or TS.

Specials: any example with TSN tags (Tiro Segno Nazionale) as prizes in Rifle competitions;
any rifles with definite (papered or markings) connections to particular battles or campaigns;

Any "RC" Carcanos (Russian Capture)

Anything I didn't mention???? (aside from Factory Cutaways, WW I Bomb throwers, Subcalibre inserts for Artillery, Pressure Guns for Ammo testing, Dedicated Naval Line Throwers, etc....)

Of course, the majority of these examples would HAVE to be "MINT, possibly UNFIRED", and otherwise in very good condition...we can be gracious and admit "any condition" for some of the exported/captured/etc examples;(my KNIL M91 actually has a handmade Indonesian-Dutch Mannlicher-style stock, and a blacksmith-made magazine box; and is very rusty, could just make out it was a Terni WW I date.)

Any comments, any forgotten examples which should be included???



War is Peace
Posted - 03/06/2004 : 01:21:15 AM
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A wonderful wish list.
Not enough time, not enough money...

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/war is peace/20043611720_Carcano del Re.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/war is peace/20043611811_Carcano Needle.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/war is peace/20043611859_Carcano Volk.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/war is peace/20043611928_Carcano TS.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/war is peace/20043611953_Carcano Youth.jpg
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pt460
Posted - 03/06/2004 : 3:21:43 PM
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I had no idea there were so many Carcanos...
And I was just happy collecting the models M91, M91TS, M91/24, M91/28, M91 Cav, M38, M38S, M91/38, M91/38 Cav, and M91/41. I guess ignorance is bliss.



DocAV
Posted - 03/07/2004 : 07:45:34 AM
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PS, I just remembered, of the M91 cav carbine, in the period 1895-1918, there are three major bayonet latch variations, and one transitional sub-variant (press knob on frame of lever latch model, detents for lever latch still visible.)

I left out the post WW II "sporterised" or "cut down" commercial sale models...they are Historical, but not "Military"; and I left out the very rare ( but existing) WW I Sniper model ( with scope).
There are a couple of real ones at the Terni Museum ( within the old Rifle Factory Building).



Glenn
Posted - 03/07/2004 : 09:08:23 AM
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How about the Scotti Model X? Not really a Carcano but uses the same barrel, magazine and ammo. One might consider it a semi-auto built with Carcano parts.



MikeS
Posted - 03/07/2004 : 7:22:40 PM
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How about adding in the 6.5 Vetterli line?



DocAV
Posted - 03/07/2004 : 8:52:42 PM
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Why don't we add ALL the Vetterli and Vetterli-Vitali rifles, after all, Carcano worked on them as well in his position as Senior Technician at Torino Arsenal; whilst we are at it, add the "Carcano ad Ago" (Needle fire conversion of earlier Muskets, introduced in 1860, and used up till early 1870s; Carcano's first venture into the Rifle field, as a junior technician.

My intention was to list a Collection of rifles using the Carcano designed M1891 Action. Anything else would make it into an "Italian" collection, NOT a "Carcano " Collection.

Anyway, after the Carcano rifles, you would have run out of $$$. Or have you just won a State Lottery, or something???



ronnymi
Posted - 03/08/2004 : 12:50:19 PM
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How about adding the Japanese Type "I". A Carcano action and barrel manufactured by Terni with a box magazine in 6.5x50 Arisaka?



DocAV
Posted - 03/08/2004 : 8:33:48 PM
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Thanks, Ronnymi, I had completely forgot the "Type I" for the Imperial Japanese Navy. There are Three makers (Terni, FNA, and Beretta,) so add another three items to the "Ultimate Collection".



WLD Bill
Posted - 03/09/2004 : 07:19:11 AM
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What about a SA marked one.



OBird
Posted - 03/09/2004 : 10:30:49 PM
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If my Carcano collection could have only one entry, it'd be a JFK rebuild. Model 38 w/"shoulder holster sling", ghetto style 2-screw scope mount/scope, etc.



Anthony
Posted - 03/15/2004 : 9:53:37 PM
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DocAV I thought Terni designed the Jap Type I, but Beretta, Brescia, and Gardone V.T. manufactured them?
Have a Type I with PB marked stock and bolt, but barrel is FAT proofed!
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Anthony Fortino



Leonid
Posted - 03/16/2004 : 02:29:01 AM
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Just picked up my first Type I at a show last weekend, first one I'd ever seen. When I took it apart found following marks on bottom of receiver: "AA","$", and what appears to be a crude "X". Can anybody tell me what these mean and who made my rifle? Couldn't find any of these marks in any of my reference books. Thanks



Atlpete
Posted - 03/16/2004 : 08:53:47 AM
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I think with the Type-I the best way to determine the builder is from the serial as certain ranges of numbers correspond to the specific builders. Mine is a apparently a Beretta, I forgot who posted the serial ranges but I remember it was on this site not too long ago. Neat rifles, I'm shooting resized 308 through mine.



Glenn
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 3:23:32 PM
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Ran accross a reference to a Carcano needlefire conversion. Would this be an appropriate addition to the ultimate Carcano collection.



War is Peace
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 3:54:26 PM
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Originally posted by Glenn
Ran accross a reference to a Carcano needlefire conversion. Would this be an appropriate addition to the ultimate Carcano collection.
I posted this photo of a needle-fire above:

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/war is peace/20043611811_Carcano Needle.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #2
DocAV
Posted - 03/05/2004 : 11:35:14 PM
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I left out the very rare ( but existing) WW I Sniper model ( with scope).
There are a couple of real ones at the Terni Museum ( within the old Rifle Factory Building).
Here is what an Italian collector later offered in another thread:

* * *

redimacchia
Italy
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 11:24:39 AM
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The only Italian sniper that the Italian collectors know is a variation of the long rifle Mod. 1891 produced in 6000-7000 exemples. The scope it was produced in a factory of Milan.
 
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