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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry for the OT post, but this forum seems to be the closest to discuss gun laws.

I have a C&R and I am trying to have 2 C&R (Remington & Stevens) shotguns shipped to me. One shotgun is missing the forend the other is missing the butt and the forend. The FFL refuses to send them claiming that due to the missing pieces these shotguns are no longer C&R.

The FFL holder wrote this:
"The ATF ruling is that in order for a firearm to fall under C&R status it must be in its original configuration. In the case of missing parts or damage the parts missing or damage had to have occured at least 50 years ago as well. As the selling agent and FFL holder we have to have proof that this is the case. We have no way of doing this."

I did not find such info on the ATF website in the laws and rulings sections. I believe he is misinterpreting or mixing up a ruling made for importing surplus military gun receivers.

It is hard to believe that a missing butt or forearm would alter the shotguns' "original configuration". Anyway, in the ATF ruling "original configuration" should read "original military configuration" - not applicable to US shotguns.

I remember discussions on Gunboards and other forums about the C&R classifications of incomplete guns 6-8 years ago. Can someone point me to any information clarifying
this issue?

Thank you
 

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Diamond with Oak Clusters Bullet Member
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The law does not "require" an 01 FFL to ship to a C&R holder. No reason is needed.

Also, the law does not require an 01 FFL to sell to an individual even if the individual passes the background check. (I know one 01 FFL who sets up at gun shows. If he gets bad vibs from a buyer, he tells the buyer that he has been delayed - which usually kills the sale.)
 

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You are trying to get a black and white answer from a grey area.

The "original configuration" statement in the ATF regs. is a real can of worms and open to interpetation.

There are thousands of milsurp C&R rifles sold as C&R with all kinds of modifications. The list is endless. Where do you draw the line. You don't, it is up to the ATF agent to make that call and the Fed. prosecutor to decide when to go forward with a case. Usually they use the chargfe if they want the dealer for some other reason. Or politically motivated.

Your FFL guy is merely protecting his business from possible ATF problems, if they want to get him.

You will find that there are tons of opinions on this subject. However it is the business owner that will suffer, if he gets an overzealous ATF agent, and just the legal costs, make it cost prohibitive to get involved in a questionable transaction.

Even if you call several offices of the ATF, you will get several different answers to this question. There isn't a black or white answer to the question.

Some FFL holders know how ambigous this subject is and they don't want to risk loosing their lic.
It is not worth it.

FFL owners can refuse to sell to anyone, if in their opinion the sale is questionable.

ATF cannot "require" an FFL dealer to sell anything.

Added thought.

It should not be hard to believe that a missing part can mean the difference between a legal C&R transaction or a felony.

Assault rifles like AKs, and SKSs for example that do not have the right number of compliance parts, can have a dramatic effect on legality. A wrong screw or magazine or other part can mean the difference between a legal piece or 10 to 20 in the Fed. pen. The parts have a value in numbers assigned to them, and if the numbers don't add up to a total that the ATF assigned to make the piece compliant. You have commited a felony. The country the part is mfgrd. in, even if it is a cleaning rod, can get you in hot water. That is the reason Tapco sells compliant parts kits for those who want to change the stocks or mags on SKSs etc.

The rules and regs get even more silly, when you really get into them. But we have to live with them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The law does not "require" an 01 FFL to ship to a C&R holder. No reason is needed.
This is really old. I was looking for the copy of the official ATF letter clarifying this issue, which was posted online years ago. Probably it was not posted here.
Anyway, this 01 FFL is an agent for an auctioneer. I bet the law does not require me to accept this FFL either. And I have a reason to reject him: he makes up "laws" to serve his agenda. Just read this part: "damage had to have occured at least 50 years ago". Clearly, this is false. Would you want to deal with an FFL who writes his own law? How can I be sure that he does not screw up something else?
RH7777:
This FFL guy is not protecting his business. He is one of the dinosaurs who are still pissed off because they cannot collect the fat transfer fees from the C&R holders. And obviously we do not talk about AK's and SKS's here, just two 1930's US made shotguns.
There is no "original configuration" statement in the ATF regs. It is "original military configuration" and it is under the importation section. I researched and read the regs.
Most major importers/dealers sell incomplete C&R guns to C&R holders, including barreled receivers or some even bare receivers. They have been doing it for years, and I am sure they had their lawyers and ATF work it out. I do not mind the background check for modern guns, I just hate to pay the fat transfer fees, especially unnecessarily.
No FFL holder needs to worry about "overzealous ATF agents" as long as they know and follow the letter of the law. Well, of course if the FFL guy does not remember or makes his own laws, that is a different story.
 

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I wonder how would you feel if during a traffic stop an overzealous cop would not accept your concealed carry license and book you for illegally carrying a concealed gun?
How would I feel? I'd feel REALLY happy about the prospect of having what the Chinese used to call "Smart money" awarded after my lawyer got through with the 1943 action. Not to mention the fun I'd have with his bosses - in public fora, whgich would cause them to be EXTREMELY unhappy with him.
 

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Diamond with Oak Clusters Bullet Member
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ATF will not do anything since the action is restrictive in nature. If it were the reverse, ATF would be talking to him.
 

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That ATF ruling only applies to the importation of surplus military forearms, not civilian ones. There is no ruling on civilan firearms and as long as their value to you is in their collectibility, in that they can be restored to original condition, it is reasonable and legal to consider them C&R.
Send the dealer the following and demand your shotguns or a complete refund.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-85-10.pdf

"ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to
those firearms in their original military configuration."

"Held, to be importable under 18 U.S.C. 925(e), surplus military firearms must be
classified as curios or relics by ATF. Applications by licensed importers to import frames
or receivers alone of surplus military curio or relic firearms will not be approved under
section 925(e). Surplus military firearms will not be classified as curios or relics, and
applications for permits to import such firearms approved, unless they are assembled in
their original military configuration.
Date approved: August 29, 1985
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
jjk308, I completely agree with you, and anyone who actually reads the applicable laws and regs should agree.
This FFL guy is a weirdo. He never answers the phone, and during the 3 phone calls I made, he talked through his assistant only. Also, he sends his emails to/through a female assistant, not directly to me. First he claimed that the shotguns are not C&R because they are less than 50 years old. I researched the manufacturing dates related info on the shotguns and submitted the proof to him. After that he ignored my attempts to contact him for a month or so. Then he replied that the shotguns are not C&R because of the missing parts. That is when he "quoted" the false ATF rule. He also claimed that he called ATF, and they are in support of his statement. When I called ATF they referred me to 27 CFR 478.11, and stated that all legal type questions must me submitted in writing and will be answered in writing. (I find it "strange" that Mr FFL received his legal advice by phone from ATF).
I submitted a letter to the ATF.
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For the posters who support the FFL guy, and wrote: "the law does not require an 01 FFL to sell to an individual".
According to the auction rules, the ownership of the guns changed hands at the fall of the hammer. So this FFL guy is NOT selling them to me, I already own the guns. By ATF law: "The sole intent and purpose of the collector’s license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain curio or relic firearms from outside his or her State of residence." Where is the ATF law/rule which says that a 01 FFL can ignore/refuse a 03 FFL? (I understand that an FFL does not "have" to sell a gun, however we are not talking about selling here.)
 

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jjk308, I completely agree with you, and anyone who actually reads the applicable laws and regs should agree.
This FFL guy is a weirdo. He never answers the phone, and during the 3 phone calls I made, he talked through his assistant only. Also, he sends his emails to/through a female assistant, not directly to me. First he claimed that the shotguns are not C&R because they are less than 50 years old. I researched the manufacturing dates related info on the shotguns and submitted the proof to him. After that he ignored my attempts to contact him for a month or so. Then he replied that the shotguns are not C&R because of the missing parts. That is when he "quoted" the false ATF rule. He also claimed that he called ATF, and they are in support of his statement. When I called ATF they referred me to 27 CFR 478.11, and stated that all legal type questions must me submitted in writing and will be answered in writing. (I find it "strange" that Mr FFL received his legal advice by phone from ATF).
I submitted a letter to the ATF.
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For the posters who support the FFL guy, and wrote: "the law does not require an 01 FFL to sell to an individual".
According to the auction rules, the ownership of the guns changed hands at the fall of the hammer. So this FFL guy is NOT selling them to me, I already own the guns. By ATF law: "The sole intent and purpose of the collector’s license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain curio or relic firearms from outside his or her State of residence." Where is the ATF law/rule which says that a 01 FFL can ignore/refuse a 03 FFL? (I understand that an FFL does not "have" to sell a gun, however we are not talking about selling here.)
Get your attorney to send a demand letter, noting that he is wrongfully holding your property and needs to send it post-haste before other steps are taken.
 

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Diamond with Oak Clusters Bullet Member
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jjk308, I completely agree with you, and anyone who actually reads the applicable laws and regs should agree.
This FFL guy is a weirdo. He never answers the phone, and during the 3 phone calls I made, he talked through his assistant only. Also, he sends his emails to/through a female assistant, not directly to me. First he claimed that the shotguns are not C&R because they are less than 50 years old. I researched the manufacturing dates related info on the shotguns and submitted the proof to him. After that he ignored my attempts to contact him for a month or so. Then he replied that the shotguns are not C&R because of the missing parts. That is when he "quoted" the false ATF rule. He also claimed that he called ATF, and they are in support of his statement. When I called ATF they referred me to 27 CFR 478.11, and stated that all legal type questions must me submitted in writing and will be answered in writing. (I find it "strange" that Mr FFL received his legal advice by phone from ATF).
I submitted a letter to the ATF.
-------
For the posters who support the FFL guy, and wrote: "the law does not require an 01 FFL to sell to an individual".
According to the auction rules, the ownership of the guns changed hands at the fall of the hammer. So this FFL guy is NOT selling them to me, I already own the guns. By ATF law: "The sole intent and purpose of the collector’s license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain curio or relic firearms from outside his or her State of residence." Where is the ATF law/rule which says that a 01 FFL can ignore/refuse a 03 FFL? (I understand that an FFL does not "have" to sell a gun, however we are not talking about selling here.)
Does the law require an 01 license holder to ship a firearm to a C&R holder ??
 

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Does the law require an 01 license holder to ship a firearm to a C&R holder ??
Allows, not requires,. IF the arm in question is C&R. Curst fool to leave money on the table, have P.O.'d 03 holder cussing you - and in this particular case, it probably is required, but that has to do with ownership issues and conversion or unlawful retention of another's property ("According to the auction rules, the ownership of the guns changed hands at the fall of the hammer. So this FFL guy is NOT selling them to me, I already own the guns."), not the licensure issues. Might be able to get the auction site to help AND just might be able to get the US Attorney (wire fraud or mail fraud) interested. Or the local DA (theft).
 
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