[RH7777]

Lately there has been a lot of questions asked about home defense shotguns.

People who have never had guns in the house are now asking what the best options are.

There are lots of variables when it comes to what is "best" or practical.

Most of the experienced "shooters" I talked with use 00 buck or #4 buck in 12 ga. for home defense. In gen. most experienced shooters prefer the most bang for the buck, sort of speak. 12 ga. with the max kick butt loads.

For less experienced or smaller people the reduced loads are a favorite. Less recoil. 16 ga. shotguns seem to be less common nowdays.

I recently bought some of the reduced loads, less recoil, 12 ga. and I was wondering if anyone had done penetration test with these, ie will it go through a door, like regular 00 buck loads.

LEOs in the family are issued pump 12 ga. but some prefer semi autos for home use.

Opinions and info. on pellet spread with the many options on ammo at close range would be interesting.

Most of us know what is best for military use, but the home defense use of shotgun is now a hot topic.

Opinions and stories to kick this issue around a bit.

Haven't checked with the "Box of Truth" guys on this issue yet, but I intend to.

 

[Galaxieman]

In the home, #1 buck!

Copied from a site long forgotten...........

12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.
In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.

If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.

Fourth choice is any 2 ¾-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not.

Shotgun Slugs, Flechettes and Exotic Ammunition for Home Defense?
Unless you live on acreage and anticipate engaging bad guys at distances beyond 25 yards, shotgun slugs are not a good choice for home defense, because of their enormous capability to over-penetrate a human body and common building materials.

Some shotgun cartridges are loaded with flechettes. These are small, steel, pointed dart-like projectiles with aft stabilization fins, and are commonly referred to as "nails with tails." The low cross sectional area of a single flechette, combined with the small amount of flechettes that can be loaded into a shotshell, makes them an inferior choice for home defense when compared to buckshot.

Also, according to Second Chance Body Armor Company, flechettes are not effective against soft body armor, if this is a particular mission requirement for your ammunition. Steel shot also is ineffective against soft body armor.

There are other various exotic shotshells that are best classified as gimmicks. These include rubber buckshot, bean bags, steel washers, rock salt, "Dragon's Breath," bird bombs, ceramic slugs, "bolo" projectiles and so on. The efficacy of these loads is questionable at best, and we advise you to avoid them altogether for this simple reason.

Summary
With the right load, a shotgun can be very effective in quickly stopping the deadly violence being perpetrated by a criminal who's invaded your home.

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition.

With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Number 1 buckshot has the potential to produce more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck, without the accompanying risk of over-penetration. The IWBA believes, with very good reason, that number 1 buckshot is the shotshell load of choice for quickly stopping deadly criminal violence.

End Notes
The term "Magnum" when applied to shotshells means "more shot." Magnum shotshells usually propel their pellets at a lower velocity than a standard shotshell.

Shotgun barrel length does not affect our shotshell recommendions.

References
Cotey, Gus J.: "Number 1 Buckshot, the Number 1 Choice." Wound Ballistics Review, 2(4), 10-18, 1996.

MacPherson, Duncan: "Technical Comment on Buckshot Loads." Wound Ballistics Review, 2(4), 19-21, 1996.

MacPherson, Duncan: Bullet Penetration, Ballistic Publications, El Segundo, California, 1994.

DiMaio, Vincent J.M.: Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc., New York, New York, 1985, pp. 163-208.

 

[tt63]

Excellent. I would add: Use only what the local police use. Otherwise an over agressive DA might try to prove you were "Lying in wait" for the oportunity to add a skin to the sun side of the barn.

 

[RH7777]

That is good information on shotgun ammo.

Also an interesting comment about the local DA and ammo.

Several high profile cases on TV about guns and self defense have the SP ammo issue. It seems that the SP personal defense ammo is a real sore point with liberals.
We see using personal defense ammo different than they do. Some prosecutors use it as tool to get a conviction if the shooter. Making the jury believe the shooter was "lying in wait" to shoot somone.

It is a lousy reality in self defense shooting casses.

One recent TV reality show, profiled the case of the NM jogger that was accosted by some crazy local with dogs. He shot and killed the guy with SP ammo while the attacker was running toward him waving his fist and threatening to kill the jogger after he shot in the air to scare the dogs away.

The attacker had a hist. of going beserk and threatening people.

THe shooter a solid lifetime teacher solid family man citizen with a CCW and no criminal hist. at all, was tried in Santa Fe and the SP ammo was a BIG issue in the case.

For those that aren't familiar with Santa Fe. It is VERY liberal, artsy craftsy, type of Yuppies hang out there.
Given the circumstance, while I was watching the show and found out where they would try him. It was a slam dunk, GUILTY.

He was found guilty.

Some of our folks that have a CCW have actually changed to FMJ, because of the reality of what tt63 posted.

I just happen to have a couple of metro cops standing in the kitchen, Christmas dinner, I asked them what ammo they use in their 12 ga. Its 00 buck, issued. Both low and high brass.

Now what would that mean if a homeowner used #1 buck and shot an intruder?

Is that fodder for a agressive DA?

 

[Calgacus]

I doubt if there is a thing wrong with ordinary to large birdshot, as regards wounding effect on an assailant in conventional clothing. Home defence ranges are almost always very short, and cases of people remaining dangerous after being hit with a shotgun are few and far between.

For the user of shotguns, one consideration is to defend himself with one on which the controls and mode of use are exactly the same as he is used to. A burglary victim is bound to be in a highly nervous state. Short barrels are much overrated. You know your space far better than he does, and if he doesn't appear lethally armed, you are lot better off poking him in the ribs at three feet than two.

For people who don't touch a firearm from one year's end to the next, there is a lot to be said for Jeff Cooper's recommendation of something like the traditional Sicilian lupara, an ordinary double hammer gun. It can sit on a shelf loaded for half a lifetime, with no springs tensioned to lose their strength. Or a piece of string and a couple of corks can hang it muzzle up in a closet, if someone hasn't marketed a $9.99 device to do the same. Make sure it's secured to the closet rail, so you can't end up firing with one cork in, and the rest dangling.

I am surprised nobody seems to market a double action shotgun with a heavy pull, which children can't operate. Even if your children are smart, it looks good in court. Remote control for all your house lights would be worth having, too.

 

[cousinkix1953]

Recoil is a problem? In that case, keep an eye open for a used gas operated Winchester model 50 at your local independent gun shop. Mine has virtually no kick at all with trap and skeet loads. It feels like I'm shooting a .22 rifle.

There is very little recoil with the kind of ammo that you guys are suggesting either.

Stay away from the hollow points too; because the liberal juries are full of PC idiots, who freak out over what they call "dum dum" bullets. "Only a killer would use that kind of ammo", in their sick minds. It doesn't matter if these are gonna break up inside the sheet rock and stucco. Never mind that a FMJ bullet is more likely to penetrate walls and kill somebody next door by accident. You are still WRONG in the minds of ignorant morons...

 

[Wynn]

I have kept my house gun loaded with 7 Winchester #1 buckshot for years. It is what patterns the best in my pump gun at 25 yds. Fortunately, I live in a state/county where prosecutions or even charges in a legitimate home defense case are extremely rare. In fact, it is down right unheard of since the "castle doctrine" and "stand your gound law" have been expanded, much to the consternation of the South Florida, liberal transplants.

 

[IHJ]

#1 buck in the tube of the house gun, backed up my slugs on the Side-Saddle. Cheap birdshot or S&B 00 buck for practice.


The #1 patterns VERY well out of my old Mossberg 500. The S&B throws shot like a blunderbuss. HUGE pattern, even at close range. For spraying an area with lead it's good ammo. Wouldn't use it for home defense unless there was no other ammo available.

 

[jjk308 In Memoriam RIP]

In my experience 00 Buck is the smallest shot effective on deer at close range. No. 4 Buck, although used by some hunters in the overlapping deer/turkey seasons, is completely ineffective on deer, doesn't penetrate enough to do more than wound. One deer my club shot was first hit at about 30 feet with no. 4, the .22 diameter pellets were all within an inch of the skin! No. 1 is almost twice as heavy as No 4, but only 70% the weight of 00 buck and I would expect it to be marginal.

Humans are much more susceptible to shock than deer, but the lack of penetration by smaller shot is troubling. And BTW, gelatin does not replicate muscle tissue well. Tests on cadavers and even live pigs showed that bullets do far less damage to most organs than gelatin tests would show, the only organ responding like gelatin being the liver.

As for that person convicted because he used hollow point ammo - would it be better if he'd been beaten and chewed to death? The best defence against BS like that is a really good lawyer who would have first done background investigations on the jurors, tried for a change of venue, and then put ballistics, personal defence, and police officers on the stand to explain why they use and recommend hollowpoints. In my state, FL, all the cost of a successful defence is paid by the state.

But thanks to our expanded Castle Doctrine it wouldn't even have come to filing charges here in Florida.

BTW, I'm pretty recoil sensitive on the range. But NEVER noticed it while hunting! Just cut the buttstock to fit properly, the old finger on trigger, butt in the crook of the arm length is pretty close, keep the butt firmly in the shoulder pocket and the recoil will be manageable in a combat situation.

 

[shucks]

I shot a buck one time with hi powered #6 lead shot while squirrel hunting when it jumped up in front of me in the swamp. It turned that white tail completely over in its tracks from about 15 yds away in the front shoulder blade. I have for several years now kept high brass #4 or #2 shot, the same thing I hunt ducks with in my home defense weapon, and have seen my brother have a ND with one into a bed matress, into the skinny side, and some shot and and the wadding came out of the other skinny side of the matress and shattered a window. That's pretty good in the penetration department, and I have a feeling that they would be a bit more likely to lose velocity in sheetrock/plaster walls and not shoot the neighbors/bystanders.

What do y'all think?

 

[RuralTurtle]

For whatever it's worth, Box o' Truth did a number of pieces on various shotgun ammunition in different bores (12, 20, .410): http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm.

Far from perfect, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[WiseAker]

Great info... Keep it coming. Now I'm sold on #1.

This comment from IHJ also caught my eye.

"The #1 patterns VERY well out of my old Mossberg 500. The S&B throws shot like a blunderbuss. HUGE pattern, even at close range. For spraying an area with lead it's good ammo. Wouldn't use it for home defense unless there was no other ammo available."

Maybe this as a first round for a 2am intruder in a house would be best? The likelihood of a miss would be minimized. If the intruder still came forward more effective following shots would show the error of their ways. I need to examine this S&B shotshell and see what it does. Perhaps it alone is responsible for the opinion some have that "You don't have to aim a shotgun."

 

[WiseAker]

Recoil is a problem? In that case, keep an eye open for a used gas operated Winchester model 50 at your local independent gun shop. Mine has virtually no kick at all with trap and skeet loads. It feels like I'm shooting a .22 rifle.

There is very little recoil with the kind of ammo that you guys are suggesting either.

Stay away from the hollow points too; because the liberal juries are full of PC idiots, who freak out over what they call "dum dum" bullets. "Only a killer would use that kind of ammo", in their sick minds. It doesn't matter if these are gonna break up inside the sheet rock and stucco. Never mind that a FMJ bullet is more likely to penetrate walls and kill somebody next door by accident. You are still WRONG in the minds of ignorant morons...

I only disagree that your label of such folks as "ignorant morons" is too generous. Perhaps the bullets aren't the true dum dums after all? It's a rhetorical question that the aforementioned ignorant morons won't get.

 

[Alden]

00, so close!

Home defense really means house defense and by extension point blank range. Even a 7/8 oz. load of any lead at close range will go thru just about anything u need it to and stop anybody if the sound of the smartly-cycled action doesn't do it first.

As some militaries had I am a proponent of high brass 2 3/4" 12 Ga. lead BB shot in a short, open cylindered, gun which is what you want at home. General purpose, closer range, affordable effect. That's a handful of .18 caliber pellets that will spread quickly and be incredibly potent within the working envelope of that choke (or lack thereof) whilst less over-penetrating target and/or backstops. Optimal distance is, what, 15 yards (with a two-and-a-half-foot pattern)? Do you live in a mansion on an estate? It used to be that that cartridge was the largest pellet-size one could readily obtain in cheap 25-round boxes without paying a "buckshot" premium (especially for 5 rounds at a time). Lead BB loads flew south since steel shot began to supplant it for waterfowl. I have liked #4 Buckshot as a rather available-in-quantity close second I have to say and even more for average expectations overall except... In a truly expected close-quarter environment (i.e. in the shotgun under your bed for use indoors, thru doors, or literally just outside the front door), although I would prefer #2 shot shells (.15 caliber) that also cannot be had anymore, I'd recommend 2 3/4" #4 shot (.13 caliber) which is everywhere.

Don't get me wrong: I have high brass 12 Ga. that I consider "defensive" in everything from 2-3/4" #2 shot to .36 caliber 000 buck (plus a few slugs) and 3" magnum (which my Mossberg 500s' magazines still hold 5 rounds of) in #1 and 00 Buck. They all have their most ideal application, a large part of which is a function of the gun's choke helping define its best operating range. Even big buckshot loses 2/3rds of its energy at 33 meters, and you'd have to hit someone with 4 pellets of 00 Buck to kill at that range implying a tight choke, but we're not talking about anything like that in this scenario. In fact, quite the opposite. As a rule of thumb, I'd say the closer the smaller the pellet must be where it will probably perform just as well if not actually better. That includes from a hit-probability, energy dump, and a safety/collateral damage perspective -- your neighbors across the way or your own family in the next room would appreciate the latter.

So, for close-in home defense I'd lean towards something like #4 shot but for more multi-purpose roles where you may want to, and especially where the gun supports, reaching out to touch someone a little further out on average I agree that #4 buckshot, maybe #1 buckshot, and at the maximum ranges even 00 Buck rounds are preferred.

Alden

 

[WiseAker]

My place is surrounded by a lot of pine trees in FL w/ neighbors over a mile away on three sides but only around 150 yards away on the one side I'm concerned about. I don't know how lethal #1 shot would be at that distance from the yard if a pellet were to somehow miss all the trees and hit someone on a porch. Two neighbors have homes there.
Still a better situation than most who have neighbors right next door to be concerned about. Maybe I just need to make sure the bad guys go in the direction I need them to before shooting? I suppose I could ask.

 

[Galaxieman]

Home defense really means house defense and by extension point blank range. Even a 7/8 oz. load of any lead at close range will go thru just about anything u need it to and stop anybody if the sound of the smartly-cycled action doesn't do it first.

If your heading into a 'situation' with an empty chamber your a fool.

Woo, scare 'em with sounds! Keep it loaded and try shouting "FREEZE MF" if you preffer making sounds.

 

[WiseAker]

If your heading into a 'situation' with an empty chamber your a fool.

Woo, scare 'em with sounds! Keep it loaded and try shouting "FREEZE MF" if you preffer making sounds.

That's funny. Too true. Definitely my approach. The next sound you hear will be a booooooooom if uninvited at 2am. Not a slide being racked. That's what a safety is for. If they hear that being clicked off more power to them.
Any verbal engagement is optional given those circumstances once it's determined that they are 1) unknown and 2) a possible threat. A verbal exchange/warning would probably be wise then ONLY if you were confident that they were unarmed and alone. That would be at the home owner's discretion. If you can't see both hands of the perp at that stage well,,, they should have had their hands up before you shouldered your weapon. Their bad. Last bad. So sad.

 

[WiseAker]

That's funny. Too true. Definitely my approach. The next sound you hear will be a booooooooom if uninvited at 2am. Not a slide being racked. That's what a safety is for. If they hear that being clicked off more power to them.
Any verbal engagement is optional given those circumstances once it's determined that they are 1) unknown and 2) a possible threat. A verbal exchange/warning would probably be wise then ONLY if you were confident that they were unarmed and alone. That would be at the home owner's discretion. If you can't see both hands of the perp at that stage well,,, they should have had their hands up before you shouldered your weapon. Their bad. Last bad. So sad.

I should have added... that the verbal "last chance" command (if one is so inclined) should be given to the invader only when the finger is on the trigger and the sight picture is good. If a 2nd perp or any perp peep from one other than the one in the sights is heard all bets are off and the perp variables are reduced by 1 by pulling the trigger.

It's called simplifying an equation. If you don't have that mental preparedness, that willingness, in advance you may as well hand your weapon to the first perp you see at 2am and ask for mercy for yourself and loved ones. This mental prep is just as important as having a proper weapon and the ability to use it.

 

[Alden]

Oh boy...
What was the actual topic again?
The John Rambo Wayne Couch-Potato Hardguy Command-Voice Fan Club, Ltd.

 

[Galaxieman]

Oh boy...
What was the actual topic again?
The John Rambo Wayne Couch-Potato Hardguy Command-Voice Fan Club, Ltd.

No, it was the "I watch too many Hollywierd movies and think the "click-clack" of jacking the slide is bad-azz."
Pretty clear where your firearm training came from, big silver screens and little glowing magic boxes!