[Carcano]

While it might be considered to drop every posting on these into one "mega-thread", I think that the different issues
- of safety concerns,
- of range reports and reloads,
- and of collectors' observations
might as well remain separate, for better oversight.
Carcano

* * *

Don Francis
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 8:30:22 PM
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Had a batch of Century’s 7.9 M38’s arrive today, very grimy, have to check bores and headspace when I get a chance. Received one with the serial number of 24. The importer's marks I could make out under the grease were Century Arms with the old St. Albans address.



DMinFla
Posted - 10/11/2003 : 9:41:15 PM
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You may want to check the firing pins on your 8mm carcanos you got as i friend of mine just got one last week and the firing pin was cut off so you could not shoot it.



Bill Davis
Posted - 10/12/2003 : 03:04:24 AM
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I got 3 of them a few years back, and two would close easily on a Field gauge. I swapped bolts and got it down to 1. I also had extraction problems, as in, they WOULDN'T, I hadda drive a rod down the barrel. I tried polishing the chamber but was afraid to go too far, since the headspace was iffy to begin with.



DMala
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 4:02:06 PM
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For the sample number 24, is the stock number matching? Any letters by the numbers on the stock? Thanks



Carcano
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 06:27:30 AM
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One further interesting detail, which I have also observed: the different front sight blades.



Hambone
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 12:45:21 PM
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My question is where did these come from? It is my understanding that the 8mm conversions came from the Middle East. If this is so, would this indicate that the two reinforcement lug Carcanos may be postwar? If I remember correctly, mine has a '41 date on either the underside of the barrel or receiver, and is a nonimport marked TS.



alpine18
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 1:18:26 PM
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Read on one of the other boards that these had come from Israel.



Hambone
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 7:51:19 PM
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The Israelis must have taken them away from someone they defeated, such as the Syrians or Egyptians. I cannot fathom the Israelis issuing such a weapon, even to second line units. I know they used converted Kar.98k's, and those were profusely available post 1945.



Carcano
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 8:03:42 PM
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I tend to share Hambone's assumption.



Hambone
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 11:09:00 PM
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This has probably been beaten to death, but would this tend to indicate that these were converted postwar from the mounds of Carcanos likely in Italy and North Africa, or surplussed to Egypt, Syria, etc., from unused WW2 stocks of rifles converted pre-1945 but unused? It sure would be nice to get some first hand, documentary evidence. This debate has been going on for ages. Did I miss anything since the 80's and 90's re solving this puzzle (definitively)?



Frank
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 03:17:10 AM
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Well, Many of these were obviously issued and used in some country that uses the Arabic language(Farsi?). The best bet is captured and sold by Israel. Hopefully, some one will find a note or scrap of newspaper under a butt plate or in a barrel channel to give us a hint. Can anyone read this?

no more accessible
Download Attachment:
92.15 KB

Also notice that Don's rifle has the 7.9 stamping rather than the 7.92 as shown below.
no more accessible
Download Attachment:
96.28 KB



Carcano
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 05:20:50 AM
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Originally posted by Frank
Can anyone read this?

Yes. "Ta'alîm", meaning "training, practice" (the apostroph in the transliteration designates a consonantic "ain", not a glottal-stop "hamza").
Regards,
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Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano



ken giller
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 4:56:12 PM
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My one 8mm carcano TS (my first Carcano also) was bought about 5-6 years ago. The store owner didn't even know what it was except that he'd take $35 for it. Curious about it I was able to contact Richard Hobbs and described the rifle to him. Only markings on it were serial # 0603 and 7.9 on the rear sight. Stock is also marked RA 0603. He said it was made at FNA Brescia and these were "made" in this caliber not converted. Since he was much more knowledgeable about these rifles, I took his word on it. Still, I'd like to know if these were converted or actually made in this caliber.



mauserdad
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 6:49:01 PM
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What I find just as interesting as the rifle is where are all the 8mm clips?



Hambone
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 8:41:30 PM
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Originally posted by mauserdad:
What I find just as interesting as the rifle is where are all the 8mm clips?

Excellent question Mauserdad, and one that's been kicked around for quite some time. I believe MRJ and/or even an old KCN newsletter addressed the mystery, but no definitive answer was forthcoming, other than it was surmised these were all single shot only (i.e., wood block in the magazine). I seem to recall someone alledging that they owned one of these, however, I think that person removed it from the tiny backpack of a rare and mysterious jackalope found deceased on I-10 somewhere near a Texas truckstop. The jackalope is known to inhabit scrub brush around canteens and lounges after 0200.



mauserdad
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 10:54:25 PM
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Hambone, a couple of years ago I bought one of the Springfield sporter 8mm Carcano. I made myself a clip for 8mm ammo out of a steel 6.5 clip. It worked. But I also remember having to change or install a 6.5 clip latch to work with the 6.5 clip. It would be interesting for someone to check their 8mm and see if it has a clip latch and if it does compare it to a 6.5 clip latch. If different then I would say there is or was 8mm clips. Just a thought. Now that you mentioned it I think there was am article about this in KCN.



ken giller
Posted - 12/24/2003 : 01:17:48 AM
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I was curious about my 8mm TS and could not remember if there were any markings on the underside of the barrel so I took it apart for a closer look. Nothing, except for a very small shield with a sort of cross stamped by the opening next to magazine area.



Mauserman38
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:49:29 AM
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whats the story on these? were they made new in 8mm? were they converted off of M91's?(i heard the reglar m38's are) does the sn of RB970(gun#1) and 2276(#2) give aclue to when they were made? another is who used thes in 8mm? gun #2 has only a crude 7.9(rear sight) and just a serial number on the barrel shank, while gun #1 has a neat 7.92 (rear sight) and FNA-R on the top of the barrel shank, and that crown type thing on the right side.also the front sights are rounded in the front and pointed in the back. thanks for help



Carcano
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:49:33 AM
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Concerning the 8mm conversions:
There are several "series" distinguished by the caliber indication and by the style of serial numbering. The shape of the digits is also different from earlier Carcanos.

It is presumed that were were converted in Brescia (since one of these "series" is but the continuation of the previous 6,5mm Moschetti TS numbering style), and Dick Hobbs also notes Terni (at least the 1941-XIX series). Also, sometimes the RA or RB is part of the barrel number and sometimes this letter prefix is only found on the stock. A more thorough study would be desirable.



Frank
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 7:41:02 PM
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Carcano, Thanks for the translation and the transliteration. The fact that this is marked as a training rifle, helps explain the well worn stock but with a near perfect bore. I guess it helps to have "training rifles" in a cartridge that is readily available in case one really, really needs to shoot them.

 

[Carcano]

Update: Century 8mm Carbine TS M38 "Broken Stock" Special Offer

Warhawk
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 1:53:24 PM
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I will give a quick update of the 3 M38's I got from Century for $99, they are in 7.92 cal (if I knew that beforehand I might not have ordered them), over all very dirty, bores are not rusted or too bad, just very dirty, all have dinks on muzzle but pass the bullet in the muzzle test, one is a 1941 Terni the other two are unmarked maybe Brescia made, the three have different stages of metal finish left, 15%, 40%, and 60%, large S on receivers.

One stock has a butt crack but not bad, two others only have minor handguard cracks, I have not checked the bolts for broken firing pins yet as I hear that was the case on the Springfield Sporter ones.

One strange thing is the Century import stamp looks old like they Century had them first, then sold them to Springfield Sporter and now they have them back again.

The barrel band and bayo lug, and the stock at the nose is different than a 6.5 M38 looks more like a k98 mauser setup.

Sure would like to know who made them into the 7.9 configuration Italians? Can anyone can help with a brief history of the 7.9 Carcanos.
More details and pics of them after I get time to clean them up.



Emperor
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 5:49:02 PM
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I didn't realize the M38 Carcano special Century was running was for the 8mm rifles. That gets me more excited about them. I thought the 8mm versions would never surface again after Springfield Sporters closed up.

To me, the 8mm cartridge adds value to these M38s rather than detract. But I guess it all depends on why you are buying them.



Bill Davis
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 01:09:53 AM
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All you gotta do to check the pins is turn the cocking piece 1/4 turn, and it'll stick out the bolt face. But you probly already knew that, didnja? The headspace IS very questionable on these, I had 3, all 3 failed a field gauge, but with bolt swapping I was able to get 2 to pass. They don't extract fired cases, and polishing the chamber hasn't helped, so I quit firing mine.
I have found the Century stamp on some very old Springfield Sporters rifles, so they musta been selling them truckloads of rifles since the early 60's or so.



Warhawk
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 2:51:41 PM
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Some additional info on the 3 8mm Carcanos from Century, all bolts have good unbroken firing pins, one carbine that I did some quick cleaning on turned out better than I thought it would, bore was almost mirror with sharp lands, metal under wood was 100% blue and new like, so far other than minor butt crack on one, and minor handguard cracks on the another two the worse thing is a missing screw that holds the bayo nosecap on, but I think I can find an odd screw to replace it.
One down and two to go, lots of cosmoline slowing down the cleaning effort, will post pics of at least the clean one soon.



Rifleman
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 8:59:51 PM
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A guy on AuctionsArms has been listing some of these.The picture he uses looks like a 91/28. I thought all the 8mm conversions were 91/38's.



valkyrie0002
Posted - 12/03/2003 : 2:04:29 PM
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My 3 8mm Carcanos have good headspace. Metal and bores are very good. Wood is beat up.



bullseye
Posted - 12/05/2003 : 08:03:28 AM
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Mine showed up last evening, dirtist guns I've ever seen. These are cracked stock, not broken stock specials. If you want to see a Century broken stock rifle, look in the .22 forum! Two have small cracks in the hand guards and the other has a small piece missing. Bores look good on all three. Time to go to the solvent tank and see whats under the dirt.



mapper123
Posted - 12/05/2003 : 10:44:16 AM
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Received my 3 cracked stock specials & were as I expected, except all 3 have serial numbers below 100. I noticed 1 small differance in the three: 1 has 7.92 very neatly done on the fixed sight & the other 2 have 7.9 roughly done.

As has been pointed out by others ...they are very dirty & I believe the metal will clean up to very good & the stocks have heavy use & minor cracks.



Carcano
Posted - 12/05/2003 : 12:36:00 PM
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Folks:
David Franchi has been collecting data and details (important) on these Moschetti TS 38 "S" carbines for a long time, and so do I, for the Carcano database.
Often, even small details can give decisive clues for the clarification of the mystery which still surrounds these guns. I would therefore very much appreciate if you all would be as kind as to either post the data here, or to email me/us.
In any case, we need *full* serial numbers of barrel and stock, the type of caliber stamping on the rear sight (7,9 or 7,92), all other markings and stamps, etc. Also the exact length of the handguard and the barrel diameter right before the front sight (mms, if you got metric tools).

Regards and many thanks,
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Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano



mapper123
Posted - 12/05/2003 : 1:43:34 PM
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I will add what information I can determine when I get my last three cleaned up.....I got 1 with my last order of m41 & descided to keep it.



markgasmo
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 11:50:46 PM
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Ii just got 3 good cracked ones today. i was trying to order a very good for $50 but they were out.
Serial numbers are: 98xxx, 8xxx & xxx.
All are covered in cosmodirt, and look pretty cruddy. cleaned em up and found that all 3 have broken firing pins, and 1 should be a u-fixem. its going back due to poor bore, bent mag and missing parts. so far the other 2 cleaned up nice though.
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Edited by - markgasmo on 12/24/2003 02:38:15 AM



Carcano
Posted - 12/24/2003 : 04:59:59 AM
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Please kindly record the data and details for our research, before sending anything back. That means: barrel markings (was the serial number in the middle, that is top of the barrel, or on the left side ?), full stock markings (with or without letter prefix), caliber indication (7.9 or 7.92), shape of front sight blade.
Many thanks



mauserdad
Posted - 12/24/2003 : 11:29:22 AM
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Do all of these have the clip latch in them and if so can someone let me know if they are exactly like a 6.5 clip latch?Thanks for the help.



Mauserman38
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:47:49 AM
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whats the story on these? were they made new in 8mm? were they converted off of M91's?(i heard the reglar m38's are) does the sn of RB970(gun#1) and 2276(#2) give aclue to when they were made? another is who used thes in 8mm? gun #2 has only a crude 7.9(rear sight) and just a serial number on the barrel shank, while gun #1 has a neat 7.92 (rear sight) and FNA-R on the top of the barrel shank, and that crown type thing on the right side.also the front sights are rounded in the front and pointed in the back. thanks for help
mike



Carcano
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:54:26 AM
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Let's try, Mauserman38 (and thanks for repeating the question here).

1. The guns were at least newly assembled, as it appears. They seem to have used existing parts. Whether the barrels were newly made or are (more likely) conversions of existing barrels, I am not sure. I suspect the latter, with the qualification that these probably were unstamped barrels "in the white" or even barrel blanks. The chambers sometimes appear to have been drilled rather than reamed.

2. The receivers may give us a clue if their bottom shows a date indication.

3. Is the "2276" situated right on top (= in the middle) of the barrel shank, or to the left side ?

4. The FNA-R RB 970 was made in Brescia (Fabbrica Nazionale d'Armi).

5. Do both guns have identical front sight blades ?



Mauserman38
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:20:03 PM
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2. no dates
3.right on top
5. yes they do

 

[Carcano]

Line / Groove across the Muzzle Crown of 8mm Moschetti ?

One other interesting observation concerns the sometimes encountered 8mm Moschetti TS with a line / groove across their muzzle crown. I think I recently even saw a posting on another Carcano (maybe a Krieghoff conversion of a M 91/41 rifle? David Franchi?) with the same peculiarity. I am not yet sure what it means.

Meanwhile, here is an old thread in this feature:


mapper123
Posted - 01/05/2004 : 4:09:47 PM
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I have 3 of the cracked stock specials from Century & noticed that there is a line accross the bore & appears to be centered ...the line is shallow enough that dose not seem to interfere with the crown ...does anyone have any idea what this is about?



Emperor
Posted - 01/06/2004 : 12:38:19 AM
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About half of the 8mm Carcanos I've seen also have lines "across" the muzzle. Some even have two, vertical and horizontal.



mapper123
Posted - 01/06/2004 : 08:25:52 AM
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I sort of thought it might have something to do with the the barrels being used in a lathe to perform some kind of operation ....

 

[Carcano]

8mm Yarns and Lore

Aethelbert very nicely remarked on 30th September 2003:

"It is an interesting rifle, especially as the very vagueness of its history and purpose leaves room for much conjecture and the spinning of some great yarns."

 

[Carcano]

Different barrel diameters

The different groups of 8mm Moschetti (or production lots, or batches, or variants, as you will) have been reported, notably by David Franchi aned his brother, to have different barrel diameters, so that bayonets may not fit. Here is one observation:

pennausamike
Posted - 01/19/2004 : 01:26:01 AM
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I bought a Springfield Sporters 7.92mm Carcano and I would now like to get a bayonet for it. I understand it should take an M/91 bayonet, but how do I know when I'm looking at on that will fit it?



Carcano
Posted - 01/19/2004 : 12:06:39 PM
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We seriously doubt that The Moschetto TS 38 "S" *ever* took a bayonet. The barrels indeed seem to be too fat (just by 0,2 mms, but that's enough). David Franchi has posted about this in the past.



pennausamike
Starting Member
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 10:53:24 AM
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Thanks for the replies. I contacted the seller after taking a pair of calipers to my Carcano. Everything seemed to check out except I measured the barrel diameter in thousandths (.506 in.) and the seller was using a scale or ruler ("about 1/2in.")

 

[Carcano]

Carcano
Posted - 05/04/2004 : 08:46:37 AM
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The "RA" subseries (plural, at least two of them exist) of the 8mm Moschetti TS "S" are interesting.

1. The first subseries was actually produced in late World War II, and it is the direct continuation of the previous Brescian production of the Moschetto TS 91/38 in 6,5 mm - the arsenal just continued the serial numbering, as we are now finding out. Most guns of this 8mm subseries are in the RA 90,000 range (beyond 95,000 or beyond 98,000, I believe).

Source: Grap's article in the DWJ, see the Carcano bibliography page on the website.

2. The second subseries continues anew with the same RA prefix, and most numbers seem to be under 1,000, always or often starting with a zero (like yours). One might suspect that they just started again with zero-one when the 100,000 were reached, but I somehow have the feeling that those are post-war production, in the same style. The late-war production under German supervision seems to have been a limited trial run, according to Grap. This also explains the new numbering after the war.

 

[Franchi]

I have seen 8mm FNA-B serial 99009.

I own two 8mm FNA-B with odd serial's.

1st) RA0370 on the barrel with RB0370 on the stock.

2nd) RB1592 on the barrel with RA1592 on the stock.

Why the mixed RA RB?
David Franchi

 

[Carcano]

böfei
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
154 Posts
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 9:33:03 PM
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Not sure as to the official designation:
has sling swivels on the bottom.

Receiver and Bolt have S marked on them,

Barrell appears to have been a 6.5 barrel reamed out to 8mm
Crown RE / Terni mark and 1941XIX still on barrel
On rear sight 7 . 9 (remnants of old Cal 6.5 can still be seen)

Odd thing, there are no original serial number on this weapon!
None (Importer added some electro numbers)

ANyone know anything about these?


Mosko
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
177 Posts
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 10:09:17 PM
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I'm thinking all the ones that had the chamber abd barrel reamed out would have been late Nazi conversions that would now be single shot versions, is yours like that?

Otherwise the Terni TS carbines 7.9mm should have been 6 shot repeaters. The numbers you list 1941 XIX could indicate an original manufacture 7.92 by RE Terni.

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Mosko


böfei
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
154 Posts
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 10:21:51 PM
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Its still a repeater (if you have a clip)


Ronin48
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



3670 Posts
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 10:56:03 PM
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Believe 8mms only held five rounds.


Mosko
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
177 Posts
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 12:13:39 AM
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There's a drawing in the Carcano book that shows the clip with 6 rounds, and the text agrees that they were 6 shot like the other Carcanos.

By the information you have supplied, I think your rifle was originally an M38 Short Rifle (SR) built and dated 1941 XIX in caliber 6.5, and marked as such by R.E. Terni.

Late in the war, the Nazis confiscated the weaapons and bored them out to and marked as 7.9 mm. Since they had actually been originally manufactured in 1941 as 8mm, they were obviously capable of handeling the more powerful cartridge.

This practice was abandoned very soon there after, for the more speedy single shot versions to be used by support personnel to allow the 98's for front line troops.

I think you have a fairly rare rifle. I will continue looking to see if there are some numbers on how many pieces like yours were actually made, but late war records a scarce also.

HTH

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Mosko


Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
368 Posts
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 8:00:46 PM
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See link on the 8mm Italian Carcano.
David Franchi

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18980


böfei
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
154 Posts
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 11:03:26 PM
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Thanks Franchi
That was a nice useful read, I do however have some questions and concerns
1. I am now sold, clips do exist for these (somewhere) the clip release mechanism difference is proof enough for me (treid this on my own guns)

2. How does the presence of a faschist date on the barrell prove mfg at that time in 8mm?
These could have very well been old barrels converted into 6.5 rifles (faschist dates) only later to be bored out to 8x57 (this could have taken place last week) please take this as constructive

The barrel on mine is RE TERNI with 1940 XIX, Cxxx5 is visible under 7.9. The barrel from sight to receiver is a spitting image of the one on my 91/38. This is different from most of the pics I have seen here. I strongly believe mine is a 6.5 barrel bored out to 8x57.
I also think this was done after the 1940 marks were added.

3.Any one ahve a clue why "S" was used ? (the german use could not be of any relavence here)
I believe its more coincidence.



Gianluca
Gunboards Member



Italy
27 Posts
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 4:01:13 PM
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I try to aswer to your questions
1) Clips are a misterious item. No one, here in Italy, remember to have seen one of these clips.
2) Your rifle was an M38 6.5 cal, for sure. Then, may be during '44 or '45 or immediately after the WW2, bored out to 8x57R. Do not worry, the alteration was made in that day, not last week. It is not so easy to rebore a barrel to another caliber. Consider that all rifles of this kind known has perfect bore, may be unfired.
It seems that those rifles were never used by RSI Italian troops. Who did use this rifles? It is still a little mistery, perhaps german troops after 1944, or (it is a theory) those guns were sold to some african country after WW2.
3) S could stand for german "Spitzer", to indicate the shape of 8x57IS bullet.
Regards



Ronin48
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



3670 Posts
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 5:00:21 PM
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Clips for the 8mm - (1_ THE CARCANO, has a drawing of a 6-shot clip, in error (2) I made a clip for one of my 8mms from a standard Carcano brass clip. The clip will hold ONLY five rounds.


Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
368 Posts
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 3:27:00 PM
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Böfel, No problem with the questions.
1) Ok.
.
2) Because the original used 6.5 (re-claimed) barrel date and serial was ground off and a new date and serial was added. (The receiver is new not all the barrels) Why add a new serial and date not matching the date of manufacture. The New serials don't use letter prefixes (there are some "RA/RB prefix serials)" in the serial like standard Carcanos, only numbers. Most 8mm serials are in order by date, 1938 1941, 1942. (there are a bunch of oddly marked examples, which might be post-war). The underside of the 8mm receiver has different inspection marking than standard Carcanos.

Is the serial on yours in the center on top of the barrel, running parallel to the barrel? Is the 7.9 on the rear sight?
Is the receiver notched for the 8mm?
.
3) I believe the Italians used the "S" marking as they didn't have a 7.92x57 JS weapon. They used the German designation for the 8mm "Spitzer" as this is the original caliber. Also the Italians had the 8x59 mm Breda and probably didn't want to get the calibers mixed up?
David Franchi
------
------
1. I am now sold, clips do exist for these (somewhere) the clip release mechanism difference is proof enough for me (tried this on my own guns)

2. How does the presence of a faschist date on the barrel prove mfg at that time in 8mm?
These could have very well been old barrels converted into 6.5 rifles (fascist dates) only later to be bored out to 8x57 (this could have taken place last week) please take this as constructive The barrel on mine is RE TERNI with 1940 XIX, Cxxx5 is visible under 7.9. The barrel from sight to receiver is a spitting image of the one on my 91/38. This is different from most of the pics I have seen here. I strongly believe mine is a 6.5 barrel bored out to 8x57. I also think this was done after the 1940 marks were added.

3.Any one have a clue why "S" was used? (the german use could not be of any relevance here)
I believe its more coincidence.


Douglas I. Kerley
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
953 Posts
Posted - 12/14/2004 : 09:54:29 AM
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HI; I have carefully inspected seven or eight of these and have sent the serial numbers off to the data base. Of the folding bayonet carbines they appear to be of the 1940 circa manufacture and have the "S" marking on the knotched reciever. They also have a knotch on the barrel to mount the folding bayonet base and not a drilled hole to mount the little fixed sight TS base. They also have a name stamped on the bottom of the reciever. On the standard TSs' they fall into eather the "Fat barrel" (so large that the standard bayonet will not fit) circa 1940 manufacture or I would assume post war rebored ones. Israel ended up with a bunch of these and Egypt used them as well. I sure would like to know more about the Israel connection. Doug