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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We know the mid 50's issue No4Mk2 rifles were issued with a spike bayonet.

We know the bayonet for the No.4MkI in WWII was a spike bayonet.

Thus some time after 1945 and 1955 this No.7 bayonet was developed and
issued.

My question is why was it developed , seems to be more a parade ground design than a functional bayonet attached to the rifle . Anyone shot his rifle with one of those hanging on it ?

The No.7 is a strange beast. Was it really issued to units for field or operational use ? Cypress, Malaysia, ..anywhere ?
 

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We know the mid 50's issue No4Mk2 rifles were issued with a spike bayonet.

We know the bayonet for the No.4MkI in WWII was a spike bayonet.

Thus some time after 1945 and 1955 this No.7 bayonet was developed and
issued.

My question is why was it developed , seems to be more a parade ground design than a functional bayonet attached to the rifle . Anyone shot his rifle with one of those hanging on it ?

The No.7 is a strange beast. Was it really issued to units for field or operational use ? Cypress, Malaysia, ..anywhere ?

First manufactured 1944.

They were found to be dangerous when used with the No4 (the bullets hit the ring) so they were never issued for 'active service' simply for parade use.
They were used with the Sten MkV

Details :

Font Line Rectangle Writing Paper




My No7 Mk1/L


Tool Wood Knife Blade Household hardware
Knife Tool Wood Blade Gun accessory
 

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Why was it developed? I'm sure it was because the No. 5 fighting knife style bayonet that was designed for the Jungle Carbine was a practical design and they were looking for a way to issue that type of bayonet to more troops. But as noted the design was flawed when used on the No. 4 rifle. Eventually the No. 9 bayonet was developed that combined the same blade design with the socket mount. That bayonet seems pretty useless as a knife so I'm not sure what the "point" was for that either.
 

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Why was it developed? I'm sure it was because the No. 5 fighting knife style bayonet that was designed for the Jungle Carbine was a practical design and they were looking for a way to issue that type of bayonet to more troops. But as noted the design was flawed when used on the No. 4 rifle. Eventually the No. 9 bayonet was developed that combined the same blade design with the socket mount. That bayonet seems pretty useless as a knife so I'm not sure what the "point" was for that either.

It was designed for the Sten and hoping to be able to reduce 'part numbers in stores' they tried to make it work on the No4.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Alan, many thanks for your posting that information.

THe logic of a bayonet for Sten or any SMG escapes me. Its laughable actually.

Any infantry soldier will validate a rifle with bayonet is the only solution if a bayonet is necessary.

My UZI has a bayonet stud...anyone got a war story of bayonets on Uzi's winning the day ...?
 

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It was designed for the Sten and hoping to be able to reduce 'part numbers in stores' they tried to make it work on the No4.
So in other words, they were trying to make one part fit more weapons to issue to more troops. If it was actually designed for the Sten, it wouldn't have also incorporated the swivel socket for the No. 4. Ergo, it was "designed" to fit both.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I suspect this was all because the Great F....ing Idea Fairy appeared, and the damage done...out came No.7 and 9 bayonets. Want a US Army modern example...The Gama Goat...that was a GFI Fairy escapade. In reality it was an painful kick in the groin issued to Army and USMC. R&D effort that went sideways, got produced and a miserable failure.
 

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Alan, many thanks for your posting that information.

THe logic of a bayonet for Sten or any SMG escapes me. Its laughable actually.

Any infantry soldier will validate a rifle with bayonet is the only solution if a bayonet is necessary.

My UZI has a bayonet stud...anyone got a war story of bayonets on Uzi's winning the day ...?
The logic of any bayonet escapes me frankly... Particularly on a bull-pup rifle like the L85/A1/A2/A3... The Australians managed to fit one on their iteration of the Steyr AUG, while the Austrian Bundesheer was content to put a barbed wire cutting thingy on the muzzle of first, the Stgw. 58 and later the Stgw. 77...

With Great Britain, I think bayonets are a cultural thing. They conquered much of the desirable real estate on the globe with rifles so fitted, so like the Empire, the sun must never set on the bayonet? It was the bayonet-equipped Brown Bess that allowed them to defeat the red shanked Heeland clansman after all....
 

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more info



The No. 7 Mk. I/L was used with the 9 mm. STEN Mk. V submachine gun.
Part knife bayonet and part socket bayonet, The No. 7 was a very innovative and complex design, with a unique swiveling pommel. The No. 7 Mk. I/L (spoken: number seven, mark one, land service) was intended to address a number of desires:

1) Replace the No. 4 spike bayonet (that nobody liked);
2) Utilize the clip-point blade of the No. 5 Mk. I bayonet (that everybody liked); and,
3) Serve a dual role as a fighting knife.
Despite all of it's ingenuity, the No. 7 Mk. I/L came to prove the old adage that a camel is a horse, as designed by committee. It was also capable of mounting to the Lee-Enfield No. 4 rifle, these bayonets were not issued as such, only being used with the No. 4 rifle for ceremonial purposes.
The grip scales are made of a resin impregnated cloth composite, Paxolin, and have deep finger grooves to allow use as a fighting knife. Examples are also found with black grips.
176,000 No. 7 Mk. I/L bayonets were produced. The design was perfected by the Wilkinson Sword Co., who produced 1,000 bayonets in 1944. Mass production was carried out by four manufacturers from 1945–1948:
Birmingham Small Arms, Ltd. —25,000;

Elkington & Co. Ltd., Birmingham —20,000;

Royal Ordnance Factory, Poole —30,000; and,

Royal Ordnance Factory, Newport —100,000.
This example was produced by Elkington & Co. of Birmingham. Elkington & Co. are one of the most important names in English silver and certainly the most important in silver plate - they invented the electroplating process in the 1830s.​
 

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There has been a lot of discussion among collectors over the years in various venues regarding the No7. One of the more controversial ones involve the bullet strikes. Whether or it did or did not happen, whether it struck the ring of a damaged/bent bayonet, or whether it struck the crosspiece of a bayonet improperly installed in haste etc. ???
The MkV Sten apparently went to the drawing board with the intention of using a No4 variant bayo opposed to the "ersatz" type spike intended for the earlier ones.
With the advent of the No5, the concept of having a dual purpose bayonet/knife to lighten the load was finally being accepted by those at the top.
The result was the No7 which looked good on paper but didn't do either job as well as desired out in the actual field.
The No7 apparently saw more use during occupation crowd control and doing POW escorts than anything else. At least that's what the majority of photos tend to show.

Relegated to parade use later and mostly issued to Scottish regiments for that purpose. Again, that's what the uncovered evidence shows to date.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
There has been a lot of discussion among collectors over the years in various venues regarding the No7. One of the more controversial ones involve the bullet strikes. Whether or it did or did not happen, whether it struck the ring of a damaged/bent bayonet, or whether it struck the crosspiece of a bayonet improperly installed in haste etc. ???
The MkV Sten apparently went to the drawing board with the intention of using a No4 variant bayo opposed to the "ersatz" type spike intended for the earlier ones.
With the advent of the No5, the concept of having a dual purpose bayonet/knife to lighten the load was finally being accepted by those at the top.
The result was the No7 which looked good on paper but didn't do either job as well as desired out in the actual field.
The No7 apparently saw more use during occupation crowd control and doing POW escorts than anything else. At least that's what the majority of photos tend to show.

Relegated to parade use later and mostly issued to Scottish regiments for that purpose. Again, that's what the uncovered evidence shows to date.
Hey JB, that video of the Sandhurst Parade you were in ? They had 1200 graduating cadets all with No.7's for that parade. So...more than Scots got those bayonets or the Scots didn't want them and they ended up at Sandhurst.
 

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Hey JB, that video of the Sandhurst Parade you were in ? They had 1200 graduating cadets all with No.7's for that parade. So...more than Scots got those bayonets or the Scots didn't want them and they ended up at Sandhurst.
What part of MOSTLY issued didn't you understand???
I was very clear on the fact I was relaying information gleaned over the years. I'm getting the impression you can't quite grasp that concept either?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
What part of MOSTLY issued didn't you understand???
I was very clear on the fact I was relaying information gleaned over the years. I'm getting the impression you can't quite grasp that concept either?
JB...you're being too serious...lighten up. Hey...maybe all 1200 of those graduating Sandhurst were Scots. Would that make you happier ? Sense of humor....lighten up .
 

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The troops disliked the spike, preferring the functional blade of the No9, so the blade was retained & a new handle created.
Then it was supposedly made differently for the Lee Enfield.
I've heard all the tales of ring strikes & Land Service use", but mine has a good 1/4" gap between the ring inside & the bottom of the bore, so I must admit to being a little confused. Its not centered by any means, but that seems like there was "enough". Is there really that much barrel whip when firing?
3816468
3816469
 
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The troops disliked the spike, preferring the functional blade of the No9, so the blade was retained & a new handle created.
Then it was supposedly made differently for the Lee Enfield.
I've heard all the tales of ring strikes & Land Service use", but mine has a good 1/4" gap between the ring inside & the bottom of the bore, so I must admit to being a little confused. Its not centered by any means, but that seems like there was "enough". Is there really that much barrel whip when firing? View attachment 3816468 View attachment 3816469
I heard the muzzle blast will shatter the grips, or loosen the crossguard. Makes sense, since they are in the right spot for that kind of damage. Something to the affect of "if you shoot with the bayonet mounted enough times, it will eventually break".
 

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That would make way more sense.
Not that I'm going to do it anyway.
 
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davecarlson, reference the bayonet on the L85. After the Falklands war was over, we had a briefing from a Major in the Scots Guards. according to him initially the L85 was not supposed to have a bayonet. After the Scots Guards used the bayonet successfully in the Falklands, it was decided that it (the L85) should have a bayonet, so it was an after thought and might explain its Rube Goldberg design. I did an article on the USMC's bayonet, which was designed to be useful as a knife, and talked to the Marine Sergeant Major who was head of the program. I asked him if there were any reports of the bayonet being used as a bayonet. He said there were some reports of Marines using the bayonet to keep Iraq prisoners moving, when they started to get a little belligerent , but not in combat. John
 

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Eventually the No. 9 bayonet was developed that combined the same blade design with the socket mount. That bayonet seems pretty useless as a knife so I'm not sure what the "point" was for that either.
The No.4 was prone to damage (See the MkIII version), and made a smaller wound. The use of a knife-type blade allowed slashing attacks, the No.4 is just a poker.

The No.7 tried to be everything.
The No.9 just tried to be better than the No.4.
 

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To make the No9 usable as a knife you needed a Sirhind MK2 'andle. It was still pretty clumsy though even "with the 'ead bashed of on a rock".
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