[sandgrounder]

My latest bayonet is this German 84/98 made by Gottlieb Hammesfahr and dated for 1917.
It has a few questions to answer so I'm hoping the Forum members can help please!
When it arrived it was lightly coated in some sort of lacquer most of which I removed with my finger nails...some still remains!
Its obviously been refurbished at some stage after WW1?..by the Germans or another country?? (not sure of the grips are original or the grip screws,last image shows this blade on the bottom and a Reichswehr modified on top...similar grips screws but different sizes)
The blueing has me foxed...its similar to the British 1907 bayonet blueing....pommel,cross guard and 20mm up the ricasso...I thought Reichswehr "modified" bayonets were blued all over....the press stud is not slotted,the flash guard looks original.

 

[AndyB]

Could be refurbished by other country postwar, it doesnt look like german rework. Normally it should be 1920 date on crossguard.

 

[sandgrounder]

Could be refurbished by other country postwar, it doesnt look like german rework. Normally it should be 1920 date on crossguard.

Thanks Andy....so who d'think might have refurbished it?...Czechs?..Yugoslavs??

 

[trajan]

The order to 'brown' = 'blue' these bayonets came in the 1930's IIRC (?1933?, as that sticks in my mind). Certainly an odd style adopted here, though!

The lack of a 1920 stamp is not in itself a big deal as this could have been ground off, but the lack of a Reichswehr unit stamp is more of a puzzle.

That aside, the great majority of dated bayonets of this type are, I think, 1915 or 1917 - for some reason 1916 examples are uncommon, and 1918 ones very rare - if they exist at all!

Julian

 

[AndyB]

Not even one of this. Personally dont believe this is CS or Yugo rework, could be done by english oriented countries, and done refurbishment similar way?.

 

[sandgrounder]

Not even one of this. Personally dont believe this is CS or Yugo rework, could be done by english oriented countries, and done refurbishment similar way?.

So we're looking at a country,after WW1 still using WW1 German rifles that this bayonet would attach to?

 

[sandgrounder]

So we're looking at a country,after WW1 still using WW1 German rifles that this bayonet would attach to?

or...on second thoughts....I'm guessing this bayonet would fit the Mauser rifle used in WW2?

 

[AndyB]

I would look under grips as the countersunk were already removed, the finish is typical for english countries refurbishment is possible it was used somewhere in similar country? is the flashguard protruding from bottom? similar bayonets could be used even in Weimar or in WW2 but this bayonet has no typical configuration for weimar era rework. Any old proofs visible on pommel, crossguard or ball finial? More detailed photos could help.

 

[milprileb]

Post WWII rework..I think you guys are looking at the wrong place on the time line continuum. Update your Flux Capacitor.

 

[sandgrounder]

I would look under grips as the countersunk were already removed, the finish is typical for english countries refurbishment is possible it was used somewhere in similar country? is the flashguard protruding from bottom? similar bayonets could be used even in Weimar or in WW2 but this bayonet has no typical configuration for weimar era rework. Any old proofs visible on pommel, crossguard or ball finial? More detailed photos could help.

Andy....I'll post some more images tomorrow!...its too dark now for photographs...

 

[sandgrounder]

Post WWII rework..I think you guys are looking at the wrong place on the time line continuum. Update your Flux Capacitor.

milprileb….d'you think a country would rework a bayonet made in 1917 after WW2....when there must have been loads of half decent "newer" ones on the market?.
..I'm wondering if any other forum members have seen this method of refurbishing/ blueing (pommel,cross guard and 20 mm up the riccaso)

 

[trajan]

Can only say - my bayonet knowledge is limited! - that looks like UK type blueing as I think you also observed.

Julian

 

[panzerfaust44]

That aside, the great majority of dated bayonets of this type are, I think, 1915 or 1917 - for some reason 1916 examples are uncommon, and 1918 ones very rare - if they exist at all!

Julian

I have 2 J A Henckels 84/98 bayonets dated 1916 and 1918.

I also have 1 Gottliebe Hammesfahr / BAYARD 84/98 dated 1916.

1918 dated 84/98 bayonets do seem to be hard to find. Maybe more so than 98/05 (18) dated examples.

 

[trajan]

I have 2 J A Henckels 84/98 bayonets dated 1916 and 1918.

I also have 1 Gottliebe Hammesfahr / BAYARD 84/98 dated 1916.

1918 dated 84/98 bayonets do seem to be hard to find. Maybe more so than 98/05 (18) dated examples.

Yes, without looking at my greatly out of date files, I agree, it is rarer to find a 1918 dated 98/05 than a 84/98.

Julian

 

[milprileb]

milprileb….d'you think a country would rework a bayonet made in 1917 after WW2....when there must have been loads of half decent "newer" ones on the market?.
..I'm wondering if any other forum members have seen this method of refurbishing/ blueing (pommel,cross guard and 20 mm up the riccaso)

LOL ...I'm laughing cause your question is so "Civilian" and typical of collectors who think military are
looking at dates, proof marks and all manner of trivia . Yes tons of stuff left over from WWII and in a refurbishment program, it was 98 Mauser bayonets into the bin for rebuild and out of bin to re issue. Parts is Parts to the military. Serviceable gear is re issued with no regard to date of mfg. A bayonet could have been in many countries service, rebuilt more than once and end up like the one under discussion. Its a 98 Mauser bayonet...used well into the 80's by other nations.

My guess is that bayonet re built by Yugo or Czech and never got re stamped with any of their markings which is not unusual. Countries re cycle stuff to re use, just be aware of that.

 

[panzerfaust44]

My guess is that bayonet re built by Yugo or Czech and never got re stamped with any of their markings which is not unusual. Countries re cycle stuff to re use, just be aware of that.

The (two tone) blade bluing is something I've not seen on Yugo re-work K98 bayonets. As someone already mentioned, it has the characteristics of bluing seen on some British M1907 SMLE bayonets.

Did Britian ever re-work any German items for reissue?

 

[trajan]

... LOL ...I'm laughing cause your question is so "Civilian" and typical of collectors who think military are looking at dates, proof marks and all manner of trivia ountries re cycle stuff to re use, just be aware of that.

No need to be rude! I think we are all aware of recyling. Look at all those Donbas 'conscripts' in East Ukraine today armed with M-N M.91/33's! And look at the over 20+ types of bayonet Turkey used into the 1950's...

The real matter under discussion here, matey, is the blueing...

The (two tone) blade bluing is something I've not seen on Yugo re-work K98 bayonets. As someone already mentioned, it has the characteristics of bluing seen on some British M1907 SMLE bayonets. Did Britian ever re-work any German items for reissue?

Quite - the blueing style here is very distinctive, as used on P.1907's, which our friend milprilrb does not seem to understand or be aware of(?)... I am by no means a bayonet expert but I have never seen that style used anywhere else - I am perfectly happy to be corrected! As far as I am aware the 20th century UK never re-used German bayonets.

One thought, though, is that the Bundesgrenzschutz was formed under allied control and so could have been issued with re-conditioned stuff?

 

[panzerfaust44]

View attachment 3976302 View attachment 3976303 View attachment 3976304 View attachment 3976305 View attachment 3976306 View attachment 3976307

My latest bayonet is this German 84/98 made by Gottlieb Hammesfahr and dated for 1917.
It has a few questions to answer so I'm hoping the Forum members can help please!
When it arrived it was lightly coated in some sort of lacquer most of which I removed with my finger nails...some still remains!
Its obviously been refurbished at some stage after WW1?..by the Germans or another country?? (not sure of the grips are original or the grip screws,last image shows this blade on the bottom and a Reichswehr modified on top...similar grips screws but different sizes)
The blueing has me foxed...its similar to the British 1907 bayonet blueing....pommel,cross guard and 20mm up the ricasso...I thought Reichswehr "modified" bayonets were blued all over....the press stud is not slotted,the flash guard looks original.

Might have been re-worked in INDIA.

Did the British ever re-work German weapons? | Gunboards Forums

 

[panzerfaust44]

View attachment 3976302 View attachment 3976303 View attachment 3976304 View attachment 3976305 View attachment 3976306 View attachment 3976307

My latest bayonet is this German 84/98 made by Gottlieb Hammesfahr and dated for 1917.
It has a few questions to answer so I'm hoping the Forum members can help please!
When it arrived it was lightly coated in some sort of lacquer most of which I removed with my finger nails...some still remains!
Its obviously been refurbished at some stage after WW1?..by the Germans or another country?? (not sure of the grips are original or the grip screws,last image shows this blade on the bottom and a Reichswehr modified on top...similar grips screws but different sizes)
The blueing has me foxed...its similar to the British 1907 bayonet blueing....pommel,cross guard and 20mm up the ricasso...I thought Reichswehr "modified" bayonets were blued all over....the press stud is not slotted,the flash guard looks original.

Might have been re-worked in INDIA.

Did the British ever re-work German weapons? | Gunboards Forums

 

[milprileb]

No need to be rude! I think we are all aware of recyling. Look at all those Donbas 'conscripts' in East Ukraine today armed with M-N M.91/33's! And look at the over 20+ types of bayonet Turkey used into the 1950's...The real matter under discussion here, matey, is the blueing...

Wasn't rude but if you insist so be it. You guys don't understand blueing process is very different batch to batch at times so it can take you on wrong path...NO the British did not blue that bayonet so that is merely wishful thinking or "speculation" at best.

One might do better looking at underside of the replaced grips for some clues but short of any clues, its a post WWII refurb out of Europe and who were the most likely countries re arming with 98 Mausers ?
I think its a rather unique bayonet worth having , lots of history its seen.

In closing if you guys got to hang on the bluing being the code to break, Go look at Hungarian, Bulgarian, Czech, Yugo, East German, Polish bluing examples .

Like the bayonet !