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Discussion Starter #1
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 10:14:57 PM
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Provided with some 9.3 cal S&B 193 grain bullets by a very generous individual {Tak so mycket!}, I have commenced to attempt to work up a load.

The goal is to get a low velocity {1500-2000} "Grouse un-Friendly" load that might also duplicate the performance of the 9,3x72R. I thought Accurate 5744 powder would be just the ticket but it appears this powder might be too slow in this caliber for the light 193 grain bullets.

Safety first... I cannot recommend any of these loads as my rifle is overbored and probably loads that are safe in it are not safe in other rifles. Do not use these loads, rather do as I did. Find a safe starting load for your rifle and work up. Call tech support at Accurate/Western Powders for help. I can only report what I found:

Averaging 3 shots, I started with 31 grains and obtained 1903 fps with an extreme spread of 85 fps and POI 4.5 inches high at 50 meters. I increased by 1 grain increments and got to 43 grains with a little primer flattening and backed off to 42 grains and got 2529 fps with an extreme spread of 32 fps. I got a 1 inch 50 meter 3-shot group but an additional shot opened the group to 3.5 inches and subsequent groups showed the same tendency to throw a shot wild. Not sure why. This bullet is a very interesting one, being strongly stepped in diameter so maybe the short section in the case was not sufficient to align the bullet in the leade. Maybe deeper seating would help.

My plan is to go to Unique next and see if a fast powder will give me the 1500 +- fps I am looking for and closer sighting for a 25 meter zero while the rifle is sighted 1.5 inches high at 100 meters with the 285 PP bullet at 2100 fps.

I shot it and some others into the jugs anyway...

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From left to right:

7.62x39 Wolf 123 grain HP at 2400 fps. Full penetration of 3 boards and 3 jugs, yawed, turned and exited 2nd jug sideways and into the 3rd jug, veered off and left the 3rd jug at the table, digging a furrow in the heavy supporting board. Found on the table. Jacket ruptured but the HP did not expand or even open up. Incidently, my daughter shot a big 220 + pound 4x5 buck with this load last year. The fact tht it performs in test media just like an FMJ convinces me not to use it on deer again. I have shot marauding dogs and coyotes and it killed them very efficiently.

7.62x39 Handload 123 Hornady SP @ 2340 fps. Full penetration 2 jugs and 2 boards, stuck in 3rd board. Expansion .52 inch, recovered weight 94 grains, 76%. I have shot two deer with this load, one broadside at 20 yards, the other broadside at 45 yards and both of those bullets exited.

9.3x57 Handload, Sellier & Bellot 193 @ 2500 fps. Disintegrated but fully penetrated 2 boards and 1 jug. Jacket found in 2nd jug, lead core on table below 2nd jug. What a BOMB this thing would be on coyotes at this velocity...

9.3x57 Handload, Speer 270 grain SS @ 2150 fps, HOLLOWPOINTED with 1/8 inch bit, .200 deep. Fully penetrated 4 boards, 3 jugs. Core found in 4th jug which it ruptured. Couldn't find the jacket.

I was so surprised by this that I shot another...

9.3x57 Handload, Speer 270 grain SS @ 2150 fps, Hollowpointed same as above. This one made it just past the 4th jug. Core found on the ground 4 feet past the jug. Jacket found 3 feet IN FRONT OF THE FIRST JUG. It must have gotten tossed high in the air I suppose.

Not sure if anybody remembers the last test run with this bullet in the 9.3x57, but the penetration was similar but the cores stayed in the jackets. This amount of hollowpointing seems to be excessive with this bullet. I need to see if about .150 depth will allow a bit more expansion without core separation...or do I. Even with the jacket/core separation, the core penetrated deeper than the PP bullet does. I have a hunch this HP will make this bullet a Hand Grenade on deer.

Well folks, there you have it. Next step with the 193 S&B is to keep trying to get something that performs like a 9,3x57R or thereabouts. And maybe I need to try a slightly shallower HP on the Speer.

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.

Landy
Gunboards Member



USA
17 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 01:56:11 AM
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I have had good luck, despite the popular wisdom, using 3031 for reduced loads.

The loads can burn a bit dirty at such low pressure, but they shoot well and save buying special powders.

The closest load that I have in bore and capacity to 9.3x57 is for .350RM 158gr. RNGC 31gr. of 3031 at ~1550. (repeat not a 9.3x57 load)

Landy


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 08:56:38 AM
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Landy:

Thanks for the tip. That is an interesting load. Unfortunately for me 3031 is a special powder as I don't use it in anything else. But, when all else fails...!

Accurate 5744 is a powder designed to be used in reduced loads, old black powder cartridges and the like. It has similar utility to the old 4759. Years ago I gave up using Dacron or tissue paper or any other non-compressed air space filler and for most of my applications of this sort 5744 with no filler works well. For example, I have a load with the 220 grain Hornady .375 bullet in my SAKO .375 H&H Magnum that goes 2450 fps, shoots very accurately and best of all, prints to same POA as my regular heavy-bullet full power load.

I believe the difficulty here with the 9,3x57 is the size of the case and the small shoulder in conjunction with the light-for-caliber bullet. 5744 is faster than 3031 so I would like to try an even faster powder. Getting these bullets and my homemade 202 grain jacketed ones to print dead-on at 25 meters would suffice. But not at 2500 fps! Shooting the jugs & boards with that one is spectacular but it is really too much to ask of the bullet.

I'm guessing the sectional density of that 193/.366 must be similar to a 180 grain .357 bullet and a load producing velocities and energies of a heavy-loaded .357 Magnum is about the goal. I used to shoot a lot of Unique in the .45-70, being as it is more-or-less a giant pistol round of sorts and one added feature of the fast pistol powders is the lack of recoil. Of course, double-loading is an added hazard and must be avoided. That's a mistake only made once.

By the way, I was thinking of your prior post in regards to the hollow-pointing of the Speer 270. Just why in the 9.3x57 the bullet holds together so well without a HP and why it shed its jacket with the HP I used is anybody's guess. But that's what these types of experiments expose. Interestingly, the cores demonstrated the same tendency to expand without producing a wide "mushroom". Just why that is I don't know, but whether HP'd or not, the width of recovered bullets is noticably less than that produced by my Old Standby, the 285 PP. Maybe the core used by Speer is more brittle than the core material used bu Prvi.

I think a smaller diameter HP bit driven the same depth might be a plus here but mine broke. They are flimsy. Next round will have to include the 1/8" bit driven shallower; about .100-to-.150 deep. Even shallower and I might have a bullet that looks like a Norma Vulkan...

Maybe there is a way to get this 270 Speer to open up wider without losing the petals. I don't even know if that matters. I'd like to get it to end its travel in the 3rd jug, not penetrating on deeper as it wants to do, HP and jacket or not.

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Landy
Gunboards Member



USA
17 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 1:44:37 PM
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My .350RM reduced load is from an old Al Miller article (Rifle, Handloader?) article, and he suggested magnum primers as an alternative to fillers. This load shoots to POA for my 250gr. load at 25yds. at MOA, and thus is crude but works.

I too was looking for about .357 handgun power, although the low rather than high side. I will, also, be working on a reduced load for my 9.3x57 using the 270gr. cast FNGC. I like 1200-1600fps for these small game with big gun loads.

That Speer may work ok unmodified if given some mass to shoot through. The committed hard cast bullet folks select shots that give the bullet some mass like shoulder to get through. The pics from your tests seem to show the Speer expanding to a flat nose and not a mushroom.

Landy
 

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LS- as to hollowpointing the 270's, why not just 'cup-point' them as in a shallow "V" for a test, with, say a 3/8" drill - small diviot from jacket to jacket on the nose. I'm quite sure this will improve the expansion some while not jepardizing the jacket.
; Of course, another test could be a deeply cannelured bullet. I think CH4D still makes the cannelure tool if you don't have one. My hunting buddy here used to do that with his 275gr. .338 Speers so he could hold the long bullet in the case mouth. They'd expand violently down to the canelure, then punch through after that like solids- lengthwise on moose. He said they were better than the 250gr. Nosler Partitions. - No cup-point, just the cannelure.
; Keep up the good work. When do you have time for work?
Daryl
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Welcome Daryl!

Good to have you on-board.

Your idea as to cup pointing bullets sounds good. The hollow pointer makes a big difference depending on depth of the hole, so it can indeed be adjusted to whatever the desired expansion might be.

The cannelure tool idea sounds like a real winner, too, and I am wondering if it just might be a perfect method to apply to the 270 grain speer 9.3 bullets, to possibly convert them to "Nosler Partition-type" performance. At the cost of premium bullets, I am convinced "kitchen-table"-type modifications might just be worth a try.
 

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Leespeed - Thanks for the site url and the welcome.
: I've thought (not much in quantity, mind you) further about hollowpointing the Speers. I have a centre-bit that has the little stub ground off - probably leaving around a 60 degree angle. This is very similar to a normal drill bit, but due to the angle of the flutes, is self centering. I may try this when my bullets arrive. No telling when that will be, but either this week or next.
: I have a box of 100, Norma 232gr. SP's coming with the dies from back East, and Speers and 8x57 brass coming from Alberta, where I normally order from.
; Have you tried the normal 232gr. SP Normas? I was going to get the Oryx 232's, but thought they might be too tough for the 57mm case. Is this correct, or should I have ordered the Oryx? They're only $5.00 per hundred, more. The Oryx are bonded, aren't they, with heavier jackets?
Daryl
 

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LeeSpeed- btw- about canneluring bullets. If you get the cannelure too deep, the bulelt will work just like an H Mantle bullet in that the top part will break off after expanding back to the cannelure, then the rear trucks right on through like a solid. This is where John Nosler got his idea for the partition, I'll bet. Sectioned H-mantle's show a serious kink in the jacket. It's this location where they break.
; Buddy Keith did this with a .338, 275gr. Speer. For deep seating, the taper of the bullet doesn't hold well in the mags. short neck, so he runs a cannelure in them, This rasies a ridge making holding in the necks more positive. He got some too deep, and the bullet acted just as I indicated above. It hit the moose high in the top of the shoulder, came apart right at the diaphram and the rear section was found in the right hip. It had gone the length of the moose. As that moose was one of his longer shots, I'll not tell how far. Suffice to say, I've never seen anyone shoot game like this man - moose, deer, goats, you name it. oops - getting carried away - again.
 
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