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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
New T-99, Blood on butt?
Topic:
Topic author: RayG_Wisconsin
Subject: New T-99, Blood on butt?
Posted on: 06/13/2006 4:54:19 PM
Message:

Picked this 30th series Toyo at the JAG show. All complete and matching except the firing pin, (found that out at home). I paid $400 for it which included a bayonet. I believe many folks walked away from it as it looked bad and had apparently had hung on a wall in a tavern or Vet hall for years and accumulated a heavy coat of cigarette smoke and grime which made the metal look real bad/rough. I figured the finish was good under the grime from past past experience with cleaning up such guns, so I bought it. When you scraped the grime a bit and wet it slightly, you could still smell a real strong odor of stale cigarette smoke. As you can see it cleaned up nicely.

Anyway, the question I have is when I started to clean the stock up I started to clean the darker/black staining on the butt when I realized that it might be a blood stain. Does anyone have experience in what blood staining on a stock would look like. Ray

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Replies:

Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 06/13/2006 4:57:06 PM
Message:
The area in question

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Reply author: deleur
Replied on: 06/13/2006 7:00:38 PM
Message:
This it not blood.
What it is i don't no...

What type of sling is on the rifle ?



Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 06/13/2006 8:07:13 PM
Message:
It's black and apparently dried on the surface and filled in the crevacices. I suppose it could be anything but why do you say it isn't blood. The sling is the rubberized canvas type. Ray

Reply author: jarjarbinks11
Replied on: 06/13/2006 9:12:48 PM
Message:
im goign to lean away from blood as well. blood has an effect on metal that is something like acid. blood will severely pit any metal work it touches.

Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 06/13/2006 9:33:16 PM
Message:
Good point! The butt plate is not pitted where the stain was next to it, Ray

Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 06/14/2006 08:57:00 AM
Message:
Ray,

Looks like it might have soaked up some oil from a floor while leaning against a wall. Doesn't look like water damage, especially if there isn't any damage to the butt plate.

John in Charlotte, NC

Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 06/14/2006 3:13:49 PM
Message:
John it didn't soak into the wood but dryed on the surface and will come off easy with Acetone. Also when I started cleaning it out of one the crevicies it appeared to be thick like you would suspect pooling of blood would be.

The only reason I want to be sure if it is blood or not is that if it is blood I'll have to give it some serious thought as to whether to clean the stain off or leave it on the stock as part of the history. I really don't care if it is blood or not but would just like to know so I can make that decision.
Just for information, I am retired from over 30 years in Law Enforcement and have seen many crime scenes and the stain on the stock, does resemble dried blood that I have seem on wooden floors and other objects before. Also the isolated area and the shape of the stain is worth noting. Generally pitting of metal from blood occurs when the blood stays moist or is maintained in a humid area. The salts and other factors in the blood does help induce pitting but so would sweat and even water if left moist. Just some thoughts, Ray

Reply author: deleur
Replied on: 06/14/2006 5:41:54 PM
Message:







quote: Originally posted by jarjarbinks11
im goign to lean away from blood as well. blood has an effect on metal that is something like acid. blood will severely pit any metal work it touches.
That's what i thought about it.

Reply author: jarjarbinks11
Replied on: 06/14/2006 6:29:58 PM
Message:
blood can rust and pit metal even if it is dried on after 60 years. i tried to clean up a nambu that still had blood on it from a long time back and it was pitted underneath the dried blood. as for the stain, if it appears to be waxy when you cleaned it, it may be dried cosmoline. that too is waxy and can be the same color as dried blood. does it give off any odors? whatever it is, it sure hasnt hurt the metal in anyway. even if it wasnt blood i would consider leaving it be since removing it may take some of the original finish with it. i very rarely if ever clean anything off an arisaka unless it is rust or dust.

Reply author: rpf2697
Replied on: 06/14/2006 8:41:53 PM
Message:
Regardless of what it is... it's a very nice rifle. thanks for the photos.

Reply author: JB
Replied on: 06/15/2006 11:28:58 AM
Message:
One online dealer used to sell a lot of guns as "blood pitted". He knew the difference between blood pitting and just plain old water/sweat/etc. rust..... cause he "was in Nam"


Very nice rifle, but I have to agree with the others that's it's probaly not blood stains.

Reply author: CW
Replied on: 06/16/2006 2:39:52 PM
Message:
Maybe you can take a sample to a local college and get it checked out by the science department?

Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 06/16/2006 10:29:46 PM
Message:
A friend of mine recently got a model 29 S&W .44 mag back from the PD in Houston,they held it a manditory 7 yrs after his dad commited suicide with it.It was stainless and had wood grips.The grips had some splatter marks of a blackened nature on one side,and the nickled emblem on the grip was severly eroded to the point it wasn't readable(S&W).Even the stainless finish was pitted on the barrel and on the frame,from a handprint the cops made when they tried to release the gun from the rigor induced grip.The pitting wasn't very deep,but it was in stainless,hard to believe,the gun was newly purchased,and only fired once.

Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 06/17/2006 11:47:25 AM
Message:
Okay, I love these mysteries. So far all the opinions that it's not blood appears to be mainly based on the fact that the butt plate metal is not pitted. As for no pitting on the metal, I notice that the butt plate screws are buggered which indicates the butt plate had been removed. Was it possibly that any blood that may have been on the metal was cleaned off when the plate was removed? In examining the stain closely, what ever it is, it had coagulated thickly in the dents and crevecies on top of the butt with some flowing down the right side of the stock which would indicate a fairly heavy fluid not an oil. Now to do so, the stock would have to be in a horizonal position much like that of the rifle being held in a firing position. The stain being in the exact spot were the shooters cheek would rest on the left side of the stock. Now I would guess, that a bleeding head wound would cause a similar blood stain pattern on top of the stock and down the right side. Just some thoughts, Ray

Reply author: jarjarbinks11
Replied on: 06/17/2006 12:25:15 PM
Message:
Ray,

those thoughts could be correct. however, if you had a head wound bad enough to leave that much blood on your rifle...would you still be shooting it? also, this things has hung in a VFW or tavern for 50 years or more. lord only knows what it went through before that. thick cosmoline has the same properties you described the mystery stain does. while im not an expert at identifying blood, i can neither confirm or deny it is blood. i can only offer my opinion in that the stain is not blood but rather the thick cosmoline that comes with it drying up over that many years. also, if the shooter (previous owner) were to leave a blood stain on that rifle, i think the stain is back to far for him to acheive proper cheek-weld when firing the rifle. that blood stain would also be found on both sides of the buttstock and not on just one side. my blood covered nambu was just a mess after it was cleaned up. the pitting was very extreme and blood found its way into every little crevice. i also find it hard to believe someone would remove the buttplate and clean the metal off, only to return it to the same blood stained stock. like i said, it just my opinion. either way, its still an awesome looking rifle and i think you did very very well for only $400! Wish i could find them like that for only 4 bills!

Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 06/17/2006 12:50:12 PM
Message:
Actually in holding the rifle up to a firing position to get a proper sight through the peep sight, the stain is even with my cheek, with some in front and some toward the rear, where the cheek rests against the butt. There is some staining on the left side also, not as much as the right side though. In any case, I'll never know for sure unless it's tested. I guess I wonder why, if it was just cosmoline, why the vet who brought the rifle home, would not have just wiped it off before hanging it up as it is not very attractive. My thinking is that it must have been something special for him to leave it on. But any way, who knows, Ray

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/17/2006 2:43:58 PM
Message:
Not sure if this will help in the for/against argument about the rifle in question. Here is what I believe is a for-sure blood splatter & drip on an ammo pouch. Most of the substance has flaked off but a fair amount remains. Looks like the poor fellow fell forward & a couple of trickles ran across the bottom & dripped off the front edge. Had this pouch for some time before I noticed it. Kinda morbid stuff.

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Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/17/2006 3:29:16 PM
Message:
This might shed some light on this. I'm pretty sure sure this is blood splatter on this 29th series. It's very localized & has a splatter pattern to it. Whatever it was, it etched & pitted some of the metal. What's interesting is that if it was blood, it left no trace on the stock. It's on the receiver & on the floorplate, so it surely was on the stock between these two locations. It may well have been cleaned up quick enough to not affect the wood but left it's mark on the metal.

Hmmm, cant seem to get the photos, so I'll try them in edit.
Here we go.
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Reply author: jarjarbinks11
Replied on: 06/17/2006 3:34:27 PM
Message:
i too have a rifle that has some splatter marks on it. those splatters are pitted but no evidence of any marks on the wood. the rest of the rifle is in great shape and blueing is really nice other than the splatter marks

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 06/17/2006 3:50:37 PM
Message:
Sometimes if theyre left near a warm spot,they will get a black oily stain similar to that.I belive its from pigments(sap) in the wood or oil/cosmo leaching thru the wood,and sort of "Bleeding" out from the grain.I had a S-33 that was beyond help a couple years back and while trying differnt methods to remove the gunk ,someone suggested putting it in a garbage bag in the back of a parked car,in the summer heat,a couple days of that and black gunk seemed to ooze out of it almost,It never did clean up completely but trying to with acetone completely washed out the stock..However to be open minded, blood stained hardwood floors have a similar black splotchy look..not sure how long a oiled ,finished rifle stock would have to be covered in blood to make a deep stain tho.I expect it would be long enough to also corrode the finish/metal a bit.if the stock was washed withblood from a head wound or whatever a lot of the blood would run down the stock and soak thru the joint in it, as well as following the joint and running down and under the buttplate,so you might look in those areas for clues,having killed and field dressed a lot of stuff, blood soaks into any opening or crack it can find and its a bugger to get off sometimes,,makes a mess on leather stuff(like slings and sheathes) too if you cant wash it up right away.I just noticed there are a few black stains on A-dogs blood speckled rifle too, most noticably under and around the bolt release where the corrosion is heaviest..Dave

Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 06/18/2006 2:59:41 PM
Message:
Well anyway unless I'm able to test it to see if it is blood we'll never know. I'm leaning either to it being dryed consmoline or blood. Because of the areas I covered in some of my earlier posts regarding the flow, location, head wound, maybe side of the head, etc. I felt it probably was blood, but then it could be dried cosmoline also. Any how I'm glad I posted the question as it created a lot of activity and interesting responses. Ray

Reply author: RedLvr63
Replied on: 06/18/2006 4:23:06 PM
Message:
If you really want to know if it's blood:
Take a small test tube and fill approximately 1 inch with distilled water. Place about 1/2 gram benzidine dihydrochloride (inexpensive and available over the internet) into the tube and dissolve by shaking and add then five drops of hypdrogen peroxide.

Place a small piece of the suspected blood on a filter paper (coffee filters work fine) and then add a few drops of the solution over the material on the filter paper. If it is blood, it will turn blue-green. Sirchie International also used to make a similar kit that contained either benzidine or Phenolphtalein and was in a surface whipe. (They may have something more advanced...I haven't worked a crime scene in over ten years).

If you still have friends at the PD, you may want to ask them to do a luminol or ALS (alternate light source) test. Since these usually test for lipids, I don't know if cosmoline would give a false positive?

Reply author: RedLvr63
Replied on: 06/18/2006 4:27:54 PM
Message:
Sorry, I should have checked before my earlier posting. Sirchie does still offer a field test kit (for about $20)

http://www.sirchie.com/detail.asp?product_ID=PHENOL100


Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 06/18/2006 9:55:05 PM
Message:
Thanks for that info, I think I'll send for the kit. Do you know if it will still test out well if there is varnish mixed in with the sample? Ray

Reply author: RedLvr63
Replied on: 06/18/2006 10:35:59 PM
Message:
Since it's acting on the proteins present in the blood, I don't think it should be effected but I'm not sure.




 
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