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hello,
It's a horizontal script ce 41 (JP Sauer) with a renumbered bolt. At that price you didn't get hurt, particularly if it's a mm bolt only that someone jacked the bolt on. If nothing else is boinkered on it, and the bolt is mm only, it's worth twice that.
Regards,
HB
 

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Discussion Starter #3
hello,
It's a horizontal script ce 41 (JP Sauer) with a renumbered bolt. At that price you didn't get hurt, particularly if it's a mm bolt only that someone jacked the bolt on. If nothing else is boinkered on it, and the bolt is mm only, it's worth twice that.
Regards,
HB
Thanks HB. What does MM mean?

Also are all the parts renumbered? How can one tell? They all bear that "6" number.


Thanks!
 

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although # 6 seems a little unusual, I think you got a very good deal. Is it import marked by a distributor? and have you a pic of the left side of the receiver where a serial # would also be? If you can, disassemble the rifle and see if there is the same serial number in the barrel groove of the stock and handguard. Good Luck

Don
 

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How is it numbered inside the barrel channel and under the handguard?
The receiver may have been buffed and re-blued but much clearer pictures are needed.
Also, is there a number on the bolt stop lever?
If the rifle is original and not re-blued and all the serial numbers including the stock are original and not altered or faked then you have a very rare and collectable rifle.
Keep in mind that there are many fakes floating around out there and new fakes are in constant production (some pretty good ones too) so in order to offer solid opinions, we need high quality close up pictures of EVERY serial number on all the bits and some intermediate distance pictures, say one third of the rifle at a time, of both sides.
 

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How can you tell that the bolt has been renumbered? The picture of the bolt/shroud/safety isn't clear enough to tell, but it doesn't look boinked from what I can see. I'd say there is a good chance it's an all-original bringback. If there is no import mark on the muzzle or elsewhere, I'd say the odds are even better.

I'd buy it for that price.
 

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Excuse me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the 655 on the bolt underside be from a 39-41 Oberndorf rifle, and the 135 on the stock be a later Oberndorf unit? Wouldn't that make this not a matching piece? Still a very nice rifle but not pure sauer, right? Maybe I'm not understanding the term matching here though.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Disassembled

I got it disassembled. Here are some more pics.

Under the barrel it reads: 36 40RD

The wood Stock has the number 2161


  • There are additional "6's" on:
  • The Underside of the barrel
  • The shell extractor
  • The Bolt extractor assembly
  • The front sight itself
  • The assembly under the sight
  • The trigger assembly








 

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Tim,

You should ask some of the more experienced members like Hambone & The Great Billdildoe about this rifle. I am told they are quite serious about 98k rifles.
You should ask them to comment on the originality of the bluing on the rifle, and the numbering as well as if the stock is original to the rifle. Their answers just might prove interesting to you.
 

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Why wait for them..
It's been buffed and blued and had the serial number "altered" IMHO.
To me, the number font looks modern and it should not be numbered on both the barrel AND receiver.
Again, good pics would reveal all, right quick.
If the bore is good and it shoots straight it's better than 98% of R/C's.
The price was in the ballpark as well.
Hard to tell from the pics but that cleaning rod may be real (which is close to a $50 piece).
 

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well. im with hambone on the bolt. check the waffen on the 'guts'... from the existing pics, im calling it a resto? bolt body, with original 'guts' (firing pin, shroud, saftey ect) the top of the bolt root is ground and renumbered. thats a easy one. not sure on the 'guts'.
the takedown disk is extra large, sauer? polished crossbolt and butplate. and whats that on the front sight? not german. with the photos shown? franken mauser rebuild. easy $325.
but it aint herman goerings or all matching. a slight step above a nice rc. so you did good.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Man this is all greek to me. I've got a lot of learning to do. :rolleyes:

Let me ask a few questions:

  • Are you saying that the "6"s are fakes? (or that some of them are fakes)
  • How can I tell the difference between a ground bolt and an original?
  • If this is a "faker" is that a common thing I'll be running across?
  • The stock should have the same # as the receiver if it's a complete original correct?
  • Does the fact that there are no import marks mean anything for its value?
  • Does the value of this type of gun go up or is it merely a shooter?
  • What book would you recommend I get to start my formal K98 schooling?

I greatly appreciate all the input.
Thanks for the education!
 

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FYI. check out the last photo. see the waffen 37 on the LOWER part of the recever??
this ones a oddball.
the stock should have the same number as the recever.
it has alot of 623's on it. should be all waa 37? not sure for '41. dont think sauer had walnuts in '41.
this will take time bro. right here or gk 43 fourm.
intersiting peice, ill check out the pics again.
you see, k98 and lugers are some of the most faked peices around. so folks just look for it by nature, cause youll see 50 fakes with cool stories for every one legit.
 

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  • Are you saying that the "6"s are fakes? (or that some of them are fakes)
    Looks like just some...bolt for sure....maybe barrel band.
  • How can I tell the difference between a ground bolt and an original?
    Experience is the best way. Sorry no easy answer for this one. Suggest you purchase one of Bob In Ohio's CD's (He's a member here)....lots of GREAT pictures of known correct examples....study the pics & data.
  • If this is a "faker" is that a common thing I'll be running across?
  • Sadly yes it is. This may have been done to decieve, or just done to pretty up a rifle....or as an attempt at restoration....hard to say what the person's motivation was at this point. Best defence for this is to study known good examples....again Bob's CD is helpful.
  • The stock should have the same # as the receiver if it's a complete original correct?
    Yes
  • Does the fact that there are no import marks mean anything for its value?
  • No....at this point the import marks may have been buffed off during the reblue process...hard to tell now. Basically as a reblued rifle it will not matter much if it has Imp marks or not as the reblue will be a bigger factor beyond the Imp markings question.
  • Does the value of this type of gun go up or is it merely a shooter?
    It will go up, but MUCH slower than an un "restored/reblued" rifle
  • What book would you recommend I get to start my formal K98 schooling?
  • First start is "Backbone of the Wermacht" by Law....it has some flaws in the data it contains, but is a good jumping off spot. It will get you the basics, and as you learn, hang out here, and gather your own observations you will be able to pick up on the flaws it has.
 

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Metal is reblued so that's easy. Bolt renumbered. I think the barrel and receiver are mismatches and a rebarrel was done at some point and THEN renumbered to match. Stock to me looks like it was lightly sanded. So to sum up I also think it was an attempted "restoration."
 

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Bill and the fellows here pretty much nailed it. The bolt is renumbered and for a Mauser, not Sauer. The barrel is for a Steyr. The lower band is ground and renumbered, the bolt is renumbered, the stock is mismatched. It may have had import marks. Anyone going to the "trouble" to do this could have zapped the import mark on the barrel with a Dremel and blued it over. After all the new pics, it's about maxed out at $325.

IDing renumbered parts, even from pics like this is not difficult when the work is mediocre. After examining many original rifles one simply knows what the various parts and fonts and finish should look like. You know something is wrong before you can articulate it. This is someone's project RC I would bet. Thanks for taking the time to post pics.
Regards,
HB
 
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