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Copper Bullet member
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/2...gun-into-ground-near-burglar/?test=latestnews

A New Hampshire man who fired his handgun into the ground to scare an alleged burglar he caught crawling out of a neighbor's window is now facing a felony charge -- and the same potential prison sentence as the man he stopped.

Dennis Fleming, 61, of Farmington, was arrested for reckless conduct after the Saturday incident at his 19th century farmhouse. The single grandfather had returned home to find that his home had been burglarized and spotted Joseph Hebert, 27, climbing out of a window at a neighbor's home. Fleming said he yelled "Freeze!" before firing his gun into the ground, then held Hebert at gunpoint until police arrived. ...
...Fleming's collection of seven rifles and a .38-caliber handgun were seized by police. ...
...Penny Dean, a spokeswoman for the Gun Owners of New Hampshire, said her organization is "absolutely outraged" by Fleming's arrest.

"This homeowner fired at the ground, from all accounts, in a safe direction and held a burglar for police and did things correctly," Dean told FoxNews.com. "The fact that this man would be charged is an outrage. Burglars in New Hampshire must know it's open season, since homeowners cannot defend themselves, as evidenced by this case. This is charging the victim." ...
 

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Gold Bullet Member and Noted Curmudgeon
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Unbelievable. I thought NH was a state with a history of protecting individual liberties?
"Live free or die" and all that. Obviously an infestation of Liberuls from Masshole or Connecticutt have gained conrol of the cops and/or DA in the Farmington area.

However - this sort of thing does establish why I have no intention of firing any warning shots. Either i am justified in shooting the villain or i am not. If i am - he gets shot. If not, he can leave and the cops can worry about catching him.
 

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I will concider my first shot into the perp as a warning shot to those who may be with him!!!!!!!!
 

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"Live free or die" and all that. Obviously an infestation of Liberuls from Masshole or Connecticutt have gained conrol of the cops and/or DA in the Farmington area.
should be Conn-"etiquette"

;)
 

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Diamond with Oak Clusters Bullet Member
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Regardless of laws, one has to consider the mindset of those enforciing the laws. One can have a very pro gun state, but one will have problems if the prosecuting people are anti gun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Snagged by that caveat in "justifiable use of deadly force".
You are either facing the threat of serious bodily harm or death or not.
If the situation justifies the use of deadly force to defend against that, you shoot to prevent injury or death.
If not, no shoot! There is no such thing as a "Warning Shot".
Unless "Castle Doctrine" laws of your state very specifically state the right to defend PROPERTY against crime or intrusion, there is no right to shoot unless deadly force is justified.
Unless that law specifically gives you the right to "apprehend, arrest, detain" you can not do so.
All fine points of the law, that most gun owners are not aware of, which can be turned against them even though they are acting in good faith in upholding and preserving the rule of law.
Maybe we should just do away with those laws and go back to "Do the right thing!" , in which case, wasting a scumbag burglarizing your neighbor's house would be "The Right thing".
 

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That is the law around here, trust me, it cost me big time. The judge explained to me the firearm is to be used for hunting and target only. It cannot be used to warn, threaten, signal,ect. Fotunately for me and a very expensive attorney, I was able to plead, no contest, to a lesser DNR violation unlawful discharge, within 450 ft. of a residence. Cheap when you consider that I only lost one very good gun. The second Attorney That I aquired was a "Firearms Specialist"/ NRA instructor. (Sounds Expensive) She devulged the entire episode, and all the lies written into the police report to the point that the county had two chioces, make her very rich, or reinstate all my firearm privileges to insure that I could not sue them for damages. The dirty cop resigned. Accually this lady charged me peanuts in lew of the fun she had while kicking the county around. Don't try this at home. Hijack.
 

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i have a friend who is a retired British Royal Marine doing security in brazil now. He had done a stint with a PMC in Iraq. Has a Brazilian Federal Carry. He says down there warning shots are used regularly and not a big deal. While I personally won't use them, I can see their value and I believe this is nonesense.

Here is the thing, if an unarmed guy that you have challenged is advancing on you, it maybe the only thing to show him you are serious. Otherwise your only options are shooting him, or possibly being overpowered. In most states, the law still doesn't allow you to shoot an unarmed male the same size as you (you are an armed male) which is a nonesense standard clearly written by people who haven't seen real violence. I've seen much smaller guys rip apart bigger guys in MMA classes. If I had to confront one of these guys on the street (not knowing they were an MMA student) I would certainly want the warning shot option in my bag.
 

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How the cops found out about the warning shot is what I'd like to know. If I were the old man I'd certainly not say that I fired one across his bow...."Well officer, I found this dirtbag crawling out my neighbor's window and I held him at gunpoint until you got here".....End of story..............
 

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In most states, the law still doesn't allow you to shoot an unarmed male the same size as you (you are an armed male) which is a nonesense standard clearly written by people who haven't seen real violence.
The standard is usually a threat of bodily harm or death. In Florida an unarmed man advancing on you saying he's going to kill you or beat you , or who has threatened to do so before, is enough, assuming you have a right to be where you are. It's a real good idea to have some proof of the threat.
 

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So let me understand this, If I use a warning shot I go to jail and lose my guns and my RKBA, If I shoot the criminal and just wound him I might get sued and have to pay his medical and may face charges, but if I kill the crook and say I feared for my life, I may have to face some legal questions but likely not much more, is that right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
While "Castle Doctrine" has been a trend sweeping through many states, some of these are well written laws and others are not. It is up to you to know and fully understand all the aspects of that law before you act. In some states "Castle" refers to YOUR home or castle and not your neighbor's castle. Unless you are "defending" your neighbor from threat if imminent serious bodily harm or death, stopping any other type of crime on his property may not be a covered provision of the "Castle Doctrine" law. In a logical world, it may be the "right thing" to do and there would be no consequences but we don't live in a logical world. Most gun owners never take the time to read up on or research the firearms laws in their own state and are woefully ignorant. A simple little mistake in splitting the fine points of law can get you in most serious trouble.

GUN= Deadly Force ... as it can cause death. All of these laws refer to use of "Deadly Force" when talking about the use of a firearm. You must be able to clearly articulate that a "life threat" of some kind placed you in fear of significant serious bodily injury or death. Even the act of pointing a firearm at this burglar subjected this man to prosecution for "Assault with a deadly weapon" if there was no "life threat" evidenced on the part of the burglar. Shooting the unarmed burglar crawling out of the window, without any justifiable fear that he was armed and capable of causing "serious bodily injury or death" would have subjected the "good guy" gun owner to a variety of felony charges. In a lot of states "Display" of a firearm, simply taking it out, showing it, pointing it can be a felony "assault". Announcing the intention to use it can be interpreted as a "Terroristic Threat" also on the felony level. "Detaining" the burglar at gun point until the police arrive could be considered "False Arrest", "False Imprisonment", or some form of assault with a deadly weapon. Unless your state's "Castle Doctrine" includes provisions and exemptions for this, and a right to "arrest" in stopping or preventing a crime, you can't do it without placing yourself at serious legal risk. And ... even if such provisions exist, you must be perfectly clear on whether they apply only while on your own property or in your own home. Those "exemptions" may not apply outside your own property lines and maybe even not outside of your house on your property.

If you are a gun owner, know EXACTLY what the laws are in your state. You don't want to find out the hard way after the fact!
Your safest bet is keeping your gun holstered or concealed until clearly faced with threat of imminent serious bodily injury or death at a level which justifies use of deadly force.
The gun remains in the holster at all times unless you intend to shoot it and are fully justified in doing so. If my gun clears leather, it is only because I fully intend to shoot someone and have justifiable need to do so to defend myself or another from threat of serious bodily injury or death.
There is no WARNING SHOT and no DISPLAY or THREAT to use it.

Your morale conscious may urge you to "do the right thing" but remember that we live in a world of carnivore lawyers ready to eat you for lunch!
 
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