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Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
I just looked at the rifle, but I didn’t buy it...yet?

Its actually fazakerley and marked 1944.

It’s all matching.

It looks to have been refinished or in the very least coated with linseed oil or TruOil. It’s shiny and my hands still smell like it after handling it for a while, and still while I’m typing this. The oil or whatever it is was wiped on the receiver as well.

There’s a repair at the end of the buttstock.

The bore is good to very good. It’s still mostly shiny and bright.

The handguard is a little loose because the front band loosely fits.

The magazine looks newer or replaced. There’s no markings on it.

The 40 rounds of ammo is older ball ammo.

Asking was $675 but he’s firm at $650. I told him I was going to do some research tonight and give a text either way. Thoughts?

I stupidly didn’t think to take pictures.
 

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Was the oil dry and had a shine, or was the oil like furniture oil put on a stock? Sounds like the stock is the only issue. If it was coated with tung oil it should dry and have a slight shine depending on how thick it was applied. But did you see dents and dings on an old stock covered over with some sort of coating; or was the stock smooth with rounded edges like it was sanded, refinished, then varnished or had linseed oil applied. Did you look at the pictures of wood close up that I showed? I guess, all I can do is suggest that you look at on-line pictures of original finishes and make your best judgement. Do you want the rifle as a cheep shooter or as a WW II collectable that you do not plan to really shoot or use for hunting or target practice?

Most seem to think original ones go $700-800, last year in WI at our biggest show at Fond du Lac there were 4 JCs priced at $550- 625. In Excellent like new, they are listed at $800 in Peterson's Military Firearms price guide, a bible for gun dealers and pawn shops, the new 9th edition. It is very difficult to find a replacement original stock for a JC. Was it possible that stock was a new replacement? That is a $400 new stock see Prestigious Wood Stocks. Great for a shooter, not my thing for a collectable.

I guess why do you want a JC? For a shooter the libertytreecollector refinished example would be fine. I am old and have no money, but if you got easy cash, buy it, and have fun shooting it.
If you want an original collectable for reenactments or as a type specimen, the average condition rifle might be fine if it had an original stock at that price. For a Safe Queen - no refinished stock.

I wish you had some photos, did you ask what the owner did to the stock? The repair to the butt seems to indicate it is an original stock and not a modern replacement. The question is what was done to it? Did you see any stock stamps in the wood? Did you see any dings or dents commonly observed on an original stock. Did it look like an original surface varnish was coated over? Was an old finish recovered or like the stock was sanded, and refinished? Then ask, what do you really want and how many JCs do you see in your state or area at gun shows? Are they always encountered. $600-650 is about right for WI prices with an original finish on a matching average condition JC. Do you want a private sale rifle that no one knows you have if it becomes a banned assault rifle? Will private sales be terminated raising the price of firearms due to required FFL transfers and an additional cost factors. Maybe buy it as shooter, then trade it off later, if you find a Safe Queen. Or better yet keep it as a shooter, then buy a true intact collectable JC when one shows up???? One too good to shoot! How much is $650 to you ? It's a set of cheep tires, one dental cleaning and extraction on a dog, a cheep auto repair.... If you want a JC, and got a decent job, spent the cash and you got a nice shooter. Maybe you will find a dog JC with a nice intact stock and you can pull a switch if the serial number is not stamped into it. Possibilities are endless if you got cash to play with.

Now, for an old guy where I cannot replace the cash, $650 is a hell of a lot of moola, and I only purchased original finish examples when I was working as an archaeologist. No JC is worth that much any more, at least to me. I got them when I thought $150-200 was fair. Remember, you can never just have one. Get it as a shooter, then search out one for each year in original condition. Then get an SMLE and a Number 4. Then get one of each maker of Number 4s .... it goes on an on. By the time you are in your 70s you got so many it all becomes junk someone has to get rid of.

Always pictures, pictures, pictures:confused:
 

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You can always find an original well used mag, or age the sucker to match. If its a refinished stock, it should not really matter as long as it functions. Was it original or aftermarket? First photo original stock second photo is yours still it looks oK maybe a heavy wipe down of turpentine, alcohol , or mineral spirits will put it back to normal?????
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Discussion Starter #44
I think the rifle im considering looks like the third and fourth stock you pictured.

The stock was dry and a semi-gloss finish. It wasn’t oily. However, as I mentioned my hands definitely smelled like TruOil or Tung / Linseed oil after I left. It looked like there were layers of oil put on over the years on the wood and metal.

The bolt was smooth and the sights only went to 800.

I didn’t see any of the usual marks or dents in a 77 year old war horse stock. If they were there they were covered up with oil or sanded away and then covered up.

I guess I lean towards the collector that likes to be able to shoot the rifle when I’d like, but also having a nice example in my collection.

I’m fortunate enough to have a good job and the ability to buy it, but $675 is still $675 dollars and would pay for a lot of other stuff, so I’m not rolling in cash. It’s a sellers market right now so I picked a bad time to want one. I’ve got a beautiful’43 No4 Mk1* Savage, so I don’t mind waiting till a better version comes along if need be.
 

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The biggest "issue" might be the wood sanded, from a collectors point of view. Look for little impressed stamps, they should be scattered about the wood. If you can't find any then yes then its sanded & the value deceased. The oily shine can be easily removed with denatured alcohol if you want to. But keep it off the wood as it will also strip any protective oil there if you get over enthusiastic.
 

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Did you pull the bolt and check the chamber edge and the bolts timing and for over rotation? Did the wear lines on the bolt head match up with the bolt body? Tung oil can be reduced by turpentine, or paint thiner. Apply the paint thinner with a rag to softened tung oil. You most likely do not want to remove it down to bare wood. Cheep forby tung oil is different from the real tung oil which produces a very hard surface and is difficult to remove without aggressive rubbing with a green scrubby or sand paper. It may not soften up. Did you see lateral sand marks or was the wood so smooth it looked too smooth -like a polished table top? Look at that Libertreecollectors reference, a lightly sanded stock. It sounds like for your buck you would rather have an intact stock. That is the way I think. Never buy refinish stuff unless is for parts value. However, the stamped date 1944 is a nice plus. The date is not on all JCs. People look for the dated ones. Did it pass a headspace FIELD gauge?
What did you think about the bolt wear patterns? This is the wear I like to see on a stock. One of Empires recently sold ones.
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I picked up a No. 5 a about a year ago through an auction at a local gun shop and I think I paid about $600 for mine. I had another one about 25 years ago, but I sold it for cash for a down-payment on a motorcycle.

Left side of the breech is marked No5 MK I ROF(F), 6/45 01147. Left side of the neck ring has England and FMF. Bolt is matching 01147, but the magazine is not. No other import marks anywhere.

It joins my No. 4 Mk. I (post-war Fazakerly 33xxx) and 1917 SMLE III*. I also have a Lee-Enfield Cavalry Carbine Mk. I.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
The biggest "issue" might be the wood sanded, from a collectors point of view. Look for little impressed stamps, they should be scattered about the wood. If you can't find any then yes then its sanded & the value deceased. The oily shine can be easily removed with denatured alcohol if you want to. But keep it off the wood as it will also strip any protective oil there if you get over enthusiastic.
I’d have to guess it was refinished because I didn’t see any cartouches or old dents or digs. I did really want it, but as I mentioned yesterday after I looked at it, I’m not sure how the stock repair and the other things I mentioned hurt the value.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Did you pull the bolt and check the chamber edge and the bolts timing and for over rotation? Did the wear lines on the bolt head match up with the bolt body? Tung oil can be reduced by turpentine, or paint thiner. Apply the paint thinner with a rag to softened tung oil. You most likely do not want to remove it down to bare wood. Cheep forby tung oil is different from the real tung oil which produces a very hard surface and is difficult to remove without aggressive rubbing with a green scrubby or sand paper. It may not soften up. Did you see lateral sand marks or was the wood so smooth it looked too smooth -like a polished table top? Look at that Libertreecollectors reference, a lightly sanded stock. It sounds like for your buck you would rather have an intact stock. That is the way I think. Never buy refinish stuff unless is for parts value. However, the stamped date 1944 is a nice plus. The date is not on all JCs. People look for the dated ones. Did it pass a headspace FIELD gauge?
What did you think about the bolt wear patterns? This is the wear I like to see on a stock. One of Empires recently sold ones. View attachment 3783316
The number bolt matched and it was very smooth. I didn’t measure anything, but it seemed to line up ok and the wear marks looked like they matched.
 

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Yeah, if the stock was refinished I'm not really sure which way I'd go.
 

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Left side of the breech is marked No5 MK I ROF(F), 6/45 01147. Left side of the neck ring has England and FMF. Bolt is matching 01147, but the magazine is not. No other import marks anywhere.
Could that FMF actually be FMP ?

FMP was the marking for the 'Federal Malay Police' issue No5 Rifles.

The "England" marking is a USA pre 1968 import marking.
 

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My first thoughts were it possibly being FMP too. But weren't they using their No5 rifles in the 60s?
Yes they were, possibly some were sold off pre 1968, or possibly the marking isn't FMP.

Maybe "redula" will come back with a photo, or more info.
 
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