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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Loading brand new Lapua brass for my Finnish M28/76. What do you all think of loading boat tail 0.308 bullets into 7.62x53R Lapua brass after neck sizing without the expander button installed? Without the expander button my RCBS neck die seems to size the neck to about 0.010 under final size when bullet is in place. Looking to extend brass life.

Les
 

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That's not a very good way to extend brass life. What is the neck diameter of a fired case? Subtract the sized diameter from that and you can see exactly how much you are working the brass with each re-load. You'll probably want to re-consider after seeing the result.

JMHO

Ray
 

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I'm not familiar with RCBS dies, I have always used Lee.. but with Lee Dies you just switch out the decapping pin I use the pin from my 303 dies in my 7.62 x 54 when I want .311 ish case mouth expander.. the Lee 7.62x54 is pretty close to .308 to start with and I use factory crimp.
 

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Lmyer.
You must have a caliper or micrometer, but you don't say whether the measurement is inside neck diameter or outside diameter. There are full length sizing dies that use interchangeable inserts for the neck sizing part of the die. You can select the amount of necksizing without using an expander if you really need to full length resize.

I have had dies that over worked the brass in the neck area so I carefully honed the inside of the neck resizing part of the die so that the neck only needed about 0.003-4 " expansion. This has to be done carefully to prevent tapering the neck sizing part. I still have to use the expander, but I can feel less effort to expand the neck and the case neck end is more uniformly square. I use Lee full length sizer dies for this since they are cheaper to replace if a boo boo occurs, but this has not happened yet.

The last option is to use an outside neck trimmer to thin the brass and also make it more uniform.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
That's not a very good way to extend brass life. What is the neck diameter of a fired case? Subtract the sized diameter from that and you can see exactly how much you are working the brass with each re-load. You'll probably want to re-consider after seeing the result.

JMHO

Ray
Here's the way I am thinking..... The big difference (given my die size) is that I would not be dragging that rough button out of my brass. Instead I would be pushing the smooth bullet into the brass - so not stretching the neck or abrading the brass with the button. Total amount the brass would be sized down and then expanded to fit around the bullet would be the same. Neck tension would probably be different.

What I am hearing here is that the brass is being worked to much in any case to extend life much, if any?

I usually get about 25 reloads per case when neck sizing using the button - before the neck splits.

Les
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I'm not familiar with RCBS dies, I have always used Lee.. but with Lee Dies you just switch out the decapping pin I use the pin from my 303 dies in my 7.62 x 54 when I want .311 ish case mouth expander.. the Lee 7.62x54 is pretty close to .308 to start with and I use factory crimp.
Thanks my RCBS neck sizer has both 308 and 311 buttons. The M28/76 I am shooting is a true 0.308
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Lmyer.
You must have a caliper or micrometer, but you don't say whether the measurement is inside neck diameter or outside diameter. There are full length sizing dies that use interchangeable inserts for the neck sizing part of the die. You can select the amount of necksizing without using an expander if you really need to full length resize.

I have had dies that over worked the brass in the neck area so I carefully honed the inside of the neck resizing part of the die so that the neck only needed about 0.003-4 " expansion. This has to be done carefully to prevent tapering the neck sizing part. I still have to use the expander, but I can feel less effort to expand the neck and the case neck end is more uniformly square. I use Lee full length sizer dies for this since they are cheaper to replace if a boo boo occurs, but this has not happened yet.

The last option is to use an outside neck trimmer to thin the brass and also make it more uniform.
The measurement was the difference between OD of the neck, before and after inserting the bullet. Again, brass is new and I would expect to work it less if it becomes thinner.

Guess what I really need is a bushing neck sizing die that will work with 7.62x54R to go 0.002 - 0.004 under bullet size without an expander button. Know of any that will work?

Les
 

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As I understand it, the brass becomes brittle due to repeated working (expanding and contracting). The internal stress can be eased by annealing the necks.
I have used annealing when doing radical brass reforming (like from 30-06 to 6.5x55) and it worked for me. Cases not annealed would usually crack on first firing.
If you are interested, I'm sure you can find instructions for annealing on the internet.
 

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I have seen that a 300wsm bushing neck sizer die will work, but I could not find a specific bushing die set for 7.62x54r. Search the net using 7.62x54r bushing type resizing die or bushing type neck sizer die and the alternatives will show up.
You can; however, special order a collet type neck sizer die from Lee Precision. In any case you might occasionally have to full length resize your cases. The information from Nearmiss about annealing is also usefull.

If you hone like me you might be stuck with one bullet diameter and not need an expander, but you can also get a separate die for 0.311 bullets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So your necksizing die sizes a whole 10 thousandths under bullet diameter? Wow. A dedicated neck sizing set-up shouldn't be working the brass that much if extending case-life is the purpose. My Lee Loader neck sizers size the case neck down much less than their full-length sizing dies do. I only use a backed-out full-length sizing die to neck size with as a last resort. Otherwise there are better dedicated neck-sizers for the task, especially collet/mandrell or bushing types where you can control the amount of sizing on the neck.

That being said I have found that when I do use full length sizing dies I get better case neck uniformity and less neck/bullet runout by first removing the sizing button/decapper, then sizing all the cases, and then reinstalling the sizing just button and running it back through the case mouths just enough to open them up to where they should be without sizing the case neck or body again. I feel this is due to the case necks being so small when the sizing button attempts to pull back through them when sized normally, versus being pushed into them in the modified practice. I've done the comparisons measurements multiple times now and the numbers don't lie in regards to Lee dies.

Dale
Yep, with the new Lapua brass that is how much my RCBS neck sizer worked it. And that is for 0.308 bullets - not 0.311 or 0.312. Of course maybe the new Lapua brass has extra thick necks in comparison to my old Privi brass.

I read a blurb some time back about the 308 bushing dies working for the 7.62x54R with modifications, but I don't have the details. Anyone know about this?

Les
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I have seen that a 300wsm bushing neck sizer die will work, but I could not find a specific bushing die set for 7.62x54r. Search the net using 7.62x54r bushing type resizing die or bushing type neck sizer die and the alternatives will show up.
You can; however, special order a collet type neck sizer die from Lee Precision. In any case you might occasionally have to full length resize your cases. The information from Nearmiss about annealing is also usefull.

If you hone like me you might be stuck with one bullet diameter and not need an expander, but you can also get a separate die for 0.311 bullets.
Please tell me more info about using the 300wsm dies.
 

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One other thing to consider is you want consistent neck tension. If you cannot guarantee that your brass neck thickness is consistent then outside neck sizing without inside expanding will give inconsistent neck tension, possibly.
When I shoot .308 bullets in my finn 27 I just swap out the .306/.307 expander into the dies, I only neck size them. When I use a neck sizing die for 7.62x54 I find that the .307 expander is just mildly expanding the neck. I find that many of my chambers even in these tight bored rifles have some neck margin and that leaves the fired neck oversized, if you are neck sizing in a normal .308 neck sizer you are sizing it down more than you may need. You'll have to see what your rifle likes. If you are using an expander or seating a bullet I don't think you are overworking your brass by that step.

Frank
 

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The 300 WSM is a short fat die body that will clear the body of the X54 but is short enough to allow the neck to reach the bushing.
I bought the neck bushing die made by Redding for the .308 Win. It will size about 30 different rounds if you have the right bushing and you keep the case straight.

Please tell me more info about using the 300wsm dies.
 

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ireload2,

Thanks, your reply was timely and more informative than I could have been. Do you have to full length resize with a fl sizer very often? Does this have to be done more often than a rimmed cartridge like the 7.62x54r?
 

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I have used the .308 bushing die with the 6.5X53R Dutch Mannlicher round. This is a skinnier round than the X54R. I have never had to use a FL die and for a long time I did not have a true FL die since they are rare and expensive. I formed with a 6.5X.250 Savage and seated bullets with a 6.5X55 Swede die. Because the case body expands when the .303 case is fired in the Dutch chamber I could not resize with the 6.5X.250 die. I bought the .308 die to permit me to neck size while minimizing the sizing. The bushing that I needed was .285. Even with a bushing die there is a lot of sizing since the Dutch chamber necks measure .300 and required .015 sizing just to get the neck the right size without an expander. In my use of the .308 bushing dies, I have never had to FL resize because I have kept the loads mild.

ireload2,

Thanks, your reply was timely and more informative than I could have been. Do you have to full length resize with a fl sizer very often? Does this have to be done more often than a rimmed cartridge like the 7.62x54r?
 

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LMyer,
Not so fast. The X54R is too fat for the .308 die unless someone modifies it by boring it out.
That is why the 300WSM die was brought up by another poster.

OK I'm sold on the Redding Win 308 neck bushing die. Sounds like this will do exactly what I want. Thanks much!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Here's the way I am thinking..... The big difference (given my die size) is that I would not be dragging that rough button out of my brass. Instead I would be pushing the smooth bullet into the brass - so not stretching the neck or abrading the brass with the button.

I usually get about 25 reloads per case when neck sizing using the button - before the neck splits.
Well, usually, there is going to be some sort of lubricant on the inside of that case neck, so the 'rough button' argument is a bit moot.

If you are already getting 25 reloads, that brass REALLY doesn't owe you all that much more. Do you anneal? how often?

Nobody says you can't get a spare button, chuck it in your drill, and take a bit off the outside. I just don't like the idea of using the bullet to do ALL the neck-expanding, especially if it is going to be .010".
 

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As far as that part of it goes I agree with the last 2 posts. I did not understand the "rough" thing at all. If your expander ball is rough it is a defect. It should be smooth as glass.

Motor
 

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To the OP point, the expander ball is only there because of inconsistencies in brass production between different manufactures. If every 30-06 case was set with a .306 ID and .326 OD, there would be no need for a expander ball, simply because each die maker would set the dies to reduce the OD to .326. But since brass differs in thickness, without the expander ball the ID would be all over the place. So, if you want to remove the expander and save brass life you have three choices, A. use a bushing type die and order the correct bushing for your brand of brass, or use a lee type collet die. B. test different brands of brass untill you find one that lands right where you want it for your die set, or C. keep turning the outside necks or ID ream until you hit the right OD, but even then you can't turn to much off or you risk ruining the brass so that may or may not work.
 
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