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Discussion Starter #1
Clay
Posted - 12/07/2003 : 9:36:52 PM
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I have gotten my third Navy marked Carcano today. I am posting my observations about it.

Model 38 TS
Maker : Beretta (Identified by PB in oval on underside of receiver and bolt root.
Year of mfg: None.
Caliber designation: None marked.(6.5 actual)
Serial G 817.

Import Mark: Made in Italy on barrel.
Navy Marking: Anchor in tang. Circle with a Shield inside with bisecting lines and a diagonal in the upper right quadrant.
The circe/shield marking appears in the stock above the serial. No stock cartouche. It also appears on the bolt root. There are two markings on the left side of the barrel that I cannot decide if what they are. They appear to be a symbol within a circle.

2) I have another 91/28 TS which is defined on the trader. It has the same circle in a shield on the left side of the stock (same position as #1)

3) 91/28 TS Brescia 1934 with clearly stamped anchor on left side of barrel and the shield/circle.

Has anybody else seen similar?



Atlpete
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 1:26:15 PM
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I have a Beretta 91/28 similiarly anchor marked though it's marked both 1934 and fascist dated.



DocAV
Posted - 12/11/2003 : 4:58:14 PM
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I have a M91TS (WW I Mod. bayo band) with a Naval School Stock mark, and a Naval webbing sling (Mills pattern, pre-WW I); NO anchors.



Clay
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 9:36:49 PM
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So..is the shield within the circle marking indicative of naval school?



DMala
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 09:57:25 AM
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Originally posted by Clay
So... is the shield within the circle marking indicative of naval school?
No, it has been found on several Navy weapons (flare guns, TS carbines, Beretta pistols, even anti-aircraft guns), the exact significance is unknown. The numbers or dashes within the quadrants of the shield are different in different samples, so it may be a system indicating different arsenals or units that the weapon was assigned to.



Clay
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 6:01:01 PM
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I figured that it indicated military districts, arsenals, or flotillas. I too have seen this marking on other Navy marked Italian arms. Now I have to go read up on the Italian navy and follow the theory to conclusion.



Clay
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 08:20:40 AM
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Originally posted by Clay
I figured that it indicated military districts, arsenals, or flotillas. I too have seen this marking on other Navy marked Italian arms. Now I have to go read up on the Italian navy and follow the theory to conclusion.
At first I thought that it indicated a property marking but with it appearing on the left side of the barrel, the left side of the butt, and the underside bolt root i am now working on a different idea. Maybe it indicates that the component (stock, barrel, bolt) received some attention from a navy workshop that was part of a system that identified the individual workshop with the shield within a circle symbol.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Doc AV: Naval TS Carcano & Sling Like Yours

War is Peace
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 9:58:03 PM
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Doc:

In a previous post you wrote:

"I have a M1928 TS with the shield on the stock (the four quadrants of the shield represent the four ancient maritime republics of Italy
(Venice, Genoa, Pisa and Amalfi)); The clincher is the Naval issue Sling, which is webbing on the style of the British Mills pattern ( sliding hooks to keep the sling in place) but of a lighter weight weave.
I have not noticed any anchors or other "Naval" marks. The sling had been on issue from before WW I, as was other Mills pattern webbing in the Italian Navy.
Regards, Doc AV"
Here's a photo of an example in my collection that sounds similar to the piece you described:

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/war is peace/200497215327_Beretta-wide sling.jpg
Download Attachment:
129.77 KB

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/war is peace/200497215429_Beretta-wide sling2.jpg
Download Attachment:
200.79 KB

PS: Thanks for your always interesting and informative posts.



Clay
Posted - 09/09/2004 : 08:19:16 AM
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That is the NICEST Navy carbine that I have ever seen.
VERY Nice!
Clay
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Navy Markings on 91/28 TS and M38 TS carbines

Clay
Posted - 08/30/2004 : 11:38:28 AM
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On 2 91/28 TS carbines and 2 M38 TS carbines that I have owned I have observed both Anchor markings AND a shield within a circle. The shield within a circle has appeared on the left side of the buttstock, the left side of the receiver, and the bolt root. I presume that while the anchor denotes navy the shield within the circle denotes fleet or unit. The variations of this stamp that I have observed are as follows

1) M38 TS carbine No maker mark. # G817 (presume Beretta 1943?) with the shield marking clear on the bolt root. The circle adn shield are "lines" with a cross inside made by two "lines" and a diagonal line in the upper right hand quadrant.

2) M38 TS Beretta 1941 # E 7261 with a poorly stamped marking on the left side of the barrel. I cannot make it out but presume it to be an anchor. The stamp on the buttstock is clearer with a circle (single line), a shield (single line) and a cross (double line) but stamped lightly enough that you cannot tell with is in the lower two quadrants. The upper two quadrants have markings which resemble sigrunen. Or at least horizontal dashes. It is sooo light. One in each.

Has anyone else observed these markings? Comments please?



Carcano
Posted - 08/30/2004 : 12:42:47 PM
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David Franchi should be the resident expert for this question.



DocAV
Posted - 08/31/2004 : 10:49:55 AM
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I have a M1928 TS with the shield on the stock (the four quadrants of the shield represent the four ancient maritime republics of Italy
(Venice, Genoa, Pisa and Amalfi)); The clincher is the Naval issue Sling, which is webbing on the style of the British Mills pattern ( sliding hooks to keep the sling in place) but of a lighter weight weave.
I have not noticed any anchors or other "Naval" marks. The sling had been on issue from before WW I, as was other Mills pattern webbing in the Italian Navy.
Regards, Doc AV



DMala
Posted - 08/31/2004 : 12:58:48 PM
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Clay, your description of the Navy markings on TS carbines is consistent with what I have seen so far. Small variations exist in the location and combination of these small (and often poorly made) stamps.

The partitions of the shield inside a circle can contain a dash, be blank or contain a number including 0. Therefor I think it may be some sort of coding of the arsenal/unit to which the TS was issued, rather than to be representing the typical Navy simbol of the Maritime Republics to which my friend DocAV refers to. This shield stamp can be found on Beretta semi-auto pistols, flare guns and naval heavy machineguns.



Clay
Posted - 08/31/2004 : 2:25:24 PM
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Is there any documentation on Italian naval unit histories?
I think that we may find some clues there.
Clay



Franchi
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 5:33:15 PM
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These "shield" emblems might be inspector markings. They might just happen to be on some "Navy" items. This "shield" marking (see photo link #1) is also seen on cal. 7.65 Model 1931 Beretta pistols and early cal. 7.65 Model 1934 pistols (these early Model 1934 pistols are Model 1931 pistols remarked Model 1934). The Model 1931/34 pistols with the "shield" marking also have wooden grips with a Navy "R anchor M" emblems in them. (see photo link #2)
I have only seen the "shield" marking on Model 1931 Beretta pistols, Navy Model 1935 Berettas had the Navy "R anchor M" marking on the frame (see photo link #3) and no "shield" marking or Navy "R anchor M" grips. These Navy "R anchor M" Model 1935 Berettas are seen with 1936 to 1940 slide dates. Around serial 471000, slide date 1941, the Navy "R anchor M" marking is no longer used on Model 1935 Berettas.
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If the "shield" marking is "Navy" why is it only on M1931 Berettas? Why isn't it used on Model 1935 Berettas?
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The "shield" marking was on the stock of a M38 Carcano TS carbine for sale on Auction Arms a while back. It was serial D3055, FNA, 1942XX. (see photo link #4) This Carcano didn't have any Navy Anchor on it. Why mark the stock with this "shield" marking and no Navy Anchor? Another question, why are "Navy" Carcano's only marked with a very hard to see (Sometimes partly below the stock wood line) anchor on the receiver/barrel?
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One of Clay's Carcanos has this "shield" marking on the bolt, I don't believe the Navy would mark a bolt.
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The "shield" marking might be a Naval inspector mark, but I don't believe it can be definitely linked to the Navy.
David Franchi
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Link #1: "Shield" marking on M1931 Beretta
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/4554207/66100188.jpg

Link #2: Grip "RM" emblem
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/4554207/66100195.jpg

Link 3#: Beretta "RM" frame marking
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/4554207/66100193.jpg

Link #4: Carcano M38 stock "shield"
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/4554207/66100186.jpg



DMala
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 2:10:45 PM
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Originally posted by Franchi
The "shield" marking was on the stock of a M38 Carcano TS carbine for sale on Auction Arms a while back. It was serial D3055, FNA, 1942XX. (see photo link #4) This Carcano didn't have any Navy Anchor on it. Why mark the stock with this "shield" marking and no Navy Anchor? Another question, why are "Navy" Carcano's only marked with a very hard to see (Sometimes partly below the stock wood line) anchor on the receiver/barrel?
.
One of Clay's Carcanos has this "shield" marking on the bolt, I don't believe the Navy would mark a bolt.
.
The "shield" marking might be a Naval inspector mark, but I don't believe it can be definitely linked to the Navy.
Dear David, I do not have experteese in the area of Beretta pistols, so I can not comment on them.

TS Carcanos can be stamped with anchors which are small and very hard to see. The stamps themselves can be uneven, shallow and incomplete. Unless someone with some experteese can examine a carbine for hours with a magnifying lens, there is no way to be sure that there is no anchor stamp. It took a while for me to finally visualize the incomplete stamp on the sample I have.
The anchor mark, in addition to the barrel, can be located in the receiver tang rail (communication from D. Hobbs), or at the root of the bolt handle. I would agree that it does not seem to make much sense, but that's what it is. As a Carcano colletor friend of mine says, "with Carcanos you never know....".

As far as I can tell, in most cases the partitioned shield is associated with the anchor mark, and when they are not associated, they still appear only on TS models, which was the only Carcano adopted by the Regia Marina. In addition, the partitioned shield stamp appears also to be associated with TS carbines with a peculiar importer stamp on the left side of the muzzle "MADE" (capital), "in" (small) "ITALY" (capital), which is in turn associated with anchor stamps. It appears that Navy-issue TS were sold in a primary batch to an importer different from the one that used the common "MADE IN ITALY" stamps on the receiver or wood. I would agree that there is no definite proof that the partitioned shield is a Navy property stamp, but it seems to be extremely likely to be in some way specific to the Navy.



francesco
Posted - 09/12/2004 : 4:45:57 PM
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Dear Dionigi, about Navy TS carbine you forgot a particular 38 TS carbine :)))
The link:
http://www.exordinanza.net/schede/carcano38TS.htm

Ciao
Francesco
 
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