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Discussion Starter #1
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 11:43:41 AM
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Has anyone had any experience shooting, handloading or hunting with this round?

How about all the juicy details? What cases do you use to make it {trimmed 9.3x74R?} , what bullets, what powders, what guns, etc, etc, etc?

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.

sbhva
Moderator



USA
1477 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 3:00:34 PM
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It is my understanding that both the 8x57 R 360 and the 9.3 version can be made from 9.3x72R brass (not 9.3x74R). That, unfortunately, exhausts my knowledge on the cartridge other than it is listed in Cartridges Of The World and that Husqvarna chambered both of these in their commercial rolling blocks. The 9.3x57 R 360 was also used in their cape guns.

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Steve




FdW
Gunboards Premium Member



Netherlands
119 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2006 : 07:53:45 AM
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In this topic you will find some info about the 9.3x57/R360
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=172553


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Fritz
http://www.Weiss-Trading.com


Rotta
Gunboards Member



Norway
45 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2006 : 08:55:20 AM
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I have loaded and shot several of my guns chambered for this interesting calibre. Good choise! As sbhva says, both their rollers and their cape guns were chamered in this calibre, and the resulsts I observe are the same for both types of actions.

The original ammo was loaded with a 193 grain jackeded semiwadcutter like bullet and blackpowder.

I make my brass by shortening and fireforming 9.3x72R brass. This is available from Norma in various places. I don't know if annealing/fireforming is really necessary, but I have done it out of old habit, and I have no broken cases so far. "Horneber Hülsen" in Germany and "Bertram Brass" in Australia both produce brass.

For bullet, I use Sellier Belliot's 193grain "samiwadcutter" - a bullet with short carrying surface. Longer jacketed bullets should not be used. I know there is a RWS alternative, but I have no idea where to buy it.

I have also shot several cast bullets and paperjackeded coldpressed bullets, but none of these give the precision I have achieved with the S&B bullet. I have a strong suspicion that cast lead bullets will perform better if I cast them a little bit harder than I have so far, but I still have no results on that issue.

I have not come to a final conclution with my experiments, but my results so far indicataes that a jacketed bullet with as much blackpowder behind as there is room for in the cartridge gives best results. I would as next move try casting bullets from wheel weights to see if that gives comparable results.

Note: I also use a standard "package" of beewax plug with waxed cardboard on both sides below the bullet in my load.

Happy shooting!

The picture shows a Husqvarna mode 33 chambered in 9,3x57R/360 with shortened 9,3x72R brass and S&B bullets.

Download Attachment:
103.98 KB

Note: Nansens gun was a Holland & Holland cape gun, not as we like to think - a Husqvarna. The configuration I believe was 9,3x57R/16, which is also very common for the Husqvarnas.

The story goes something like this - correct me if I'm wrong:

Nansen and Johansen left the ship "FRAM" in a last attempt to reach the north pole on foot, as it was clear that the ship would not come very close to it.

During this effort an icebear attacked Johansen, had him on the back and was getting prepared for supper in Johansens behalf.

Johansen was out of tricks, and called to Nansen for assistance:

"You better shoot soon Sir, or I'm afraid it will be too late!".

They had at this point been together for several months in the ice and even shared the same sleeping bag - and were still adressing each other "Sir"! I belive they decided to quit the "Sir"ing after this incident.

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Rattus Norwegicus

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Edited by - Rotta on 12/22/2006 09:03:08 AM


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2006 : 11:08:43 AM
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Thanks very much for the site and info, gents!

I knew you'd come through!!!

Rotta: Have you hunted with the caliber or chrono'd your loads?

I seem to remember N/J's guns had the 20 gauge shotgun barrel. This struck me as I thought the 20 was a "rare bird" back then. I can't remember exactly where I read that...Farthest North?

They had all sorts of adventures with the guns and after their wintering experience had used up 80 of their 180 rifle cartridges. They went into winter with a stock of 12 polar bear and 4 walrus for food and blubber {for fuel}. There is a picture of Johansen shooting a walrus at bayonet distance in Huntford's book. All this is relevant as the 9.3x57R is no elephant gun. Most recorded shots on game {seal, bear and walrus} in the books on that expedition I've read were short, a couple right at the hut door! Our two heros were smart men and didn't waste precious ammo.

I really chew on this bear stuff {no pun intended...} because some years ago I had the misfortune to be involved in a fight with a black bear that resulted in me clicking an empty .44 Mag revolver into the black of the bear's chest as it attacked me and the hounds. My 13-year-old son dove over my shoulder and shoved his 7x57R into its chest and finally killed it. I say this because it was a very small bear and N/J's were BIG. That x57R is no .458 Lott and a bear can absorb a LOT of ballistic punishment if the blood is up. There was no excess of power with my .44 and none with their 9.3's.

Rotta, I have used a wad column like you describe in the .45-70 with cast bullets. Works very well indeed. It consists of a cardboard over-powder wad followed by a lube-soaked felt wad followed by a card wad under the bullet. That bullet was not gas checked and I had little leading, only a bit in really cold weather.

A Norwegian friend who has studied Nansen's guns tells me Nansen was quite a shooter and gun nut and actually preferred swartkrutt over early smokeless for its superior ignition properties.

And not to disparage the 9.3x57R, but Nansen did bring along a .577 double rifle, too but it went to the bottom of the sea in a boat accident early in the expedition. I wonder if he had had plans to take it on the sledge journey? Regardless, a rifle/shotgun cape gun was a splendid idea both in theory and, as it turned out, in practise!

Yes, the "Sir"-ing continued for months, in and out of the sleeping bag!

Any further load info and hunting experience with this interesting cartridge would be greatly appreciated!

Has anybody ever tried .30-30 or .38-55 cases? They look like they'd be a bit short, but otherwise might work.

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Rotta
Gunboards Member



Norway
45 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2006 : 1:49:59 PM
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Hi again LeeSpeed!

Very interesting stuff this, and the source of endless discussions here in Norway! The norwegian author Svein Sollie wrote a very interesting book about Nansen as a hunter and his guns, but I doubt it is translated to english. Sollie was a enthusiastic gunbug himself, and did a lot of good work for the blackpowdersport in Norway. Unfortunately he passed away a couple of years ago, many years too early. All the questions you rise are, I guess, are answered in Sollie's book, and also in one of the articles i know he wrote about Husqvarna cape guns in 9.3x57R/360! I believe a friend of mine has got that article scanned in, and I will write him an email to ask in just a moment - perhaps I can get you a translation of it.

Nansen was a gunbug indeed - and as you say: He did pick a lot of blackpowder guns for his expeditions due to it's temperature properties. I can also mention that he was also very interested in the Krag-Jørgensen rifle (it's a little bit off topic Krag and Jørgensen beeing norwegians, but worth mentioning;-)), and brought several guns of this type, and also Krag-Peterson (a martini-henry like action in cal. 12.7x44R) on his expeditions. Remington guns were "standard" in Norway at the time, and there was also a lot of those on the FRAM voyages. The Krag rifles were at this time not approved by the norwegian armed forces, and Nansen was here way ahead of his time. Several of these guns are on display in the FRAM museum in Oslo.

Husqvarna usually made two versions of their cape guns one in 9.3x57R/360 and one in 12.7x44R, the first I guess intended for roe deer hunting and the latter I guess intended for moose hunting. Both types could shoot a slug in the shotgun barrel, and they were good allround guns. A common nickname for them is "missionary guns" - a single allround gun for many purposes. The use of slugs were, I guess, pretty common, since it was also common to have the shotgun barrel "straight rifled", meaning rifles with no turns. This should in theory stabilize a bullet to a certain degree, and still allow the shooter to shoot shot in the same barrel. Husqvarna sold short cartridges in 20, 24 and 28 gauge loaded with a round lead ball for this use.

The 9.3x57R/360 is not a very powerful calibre, and a swiss friend of mine who has done a lot of shooting with it says the V0 is around 400m/s. That does not satisfy the requirements for hunting roe deer in todays Norway, although I believe a roe deer at reasonable range would go down pretty fast! I intend to do some measurements on this when I get a little further with the precision. I intend to shoot roedeer with my cape gun if I can press the speed up a bit, but I would under no circumstances shot at anything larger than roe deer with it. It can also be said about it, that what it lacks in power, it gains in precision. I have shot several groups in the 5cm size at 100m over the original iron sights using the S&B bullet. The problem is as always with BP guns - the range must be carefully judged since the bullet drop is substantial.

How Nansen and Johansen regularly bumped off large and dangerous game like polar bear and whaleross with this peashooter is beyond my understanding, but I have a strong suspicion that he either went for a headshot at short range using the rifle barrel, or they did as the common hunters did those days - used a slug in their shotgun barrel. I guess they probably kept both options open?

I have added some pictures of some original cartridges for a 9.3x57R/360 / 16 cape gun I have. The first one show the 9.3 together with a 30-30Win. The 30-30Win rim is about the same size, but the cartridge body is slightly slimmer, and I doubt it will work well as a 9.3x57R. It is also much too short.

Download Attachment:
95.39 KB

The second shows the label on the original cartridges. One can see that it was loaded with 2,63 gram of a powder called Sm 5 and a 12,5 gram (193grn) bullet.

Download Attachment:
244.02 KB

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Rattus Norwegicus

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Edited by - Rotta on 12/22/2006 2:08:34 PM


arilar
Gunboards Premium Member



Sweden
244 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2006 : 4:00:57 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Rotta

Hi again LeeSpeed!

Very interesting stuff this, and the source of endless discussions here in Norway! The norwegian author Svein Sollie wrote a very interesting book about Nansen as a hunter and his guns, but I doubt it is translated to english.
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Hi Rotta,
Thanks for info on this book. Will immediately try to get it!!
Can recommend Ragnar Kvam Jr:s book "Den tredje mann, Beretningen om Hjalmar Johansen" from 1997 that I bought in Longyearbyn some years ago.
Regards,
ARILAR


Rotta
Gunboards Member



Norway
45 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2006 : 4:54:37 PM
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Hej arilar - and why am I not surprised to find you here...

If you can locate a bookstore with the book - please mail me since I have been unable to find such, and it is out of print!!!! [:-(]

I have now received the article I mention above - anyone prepared for 7 pages norwegian may pm me for a copy.



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Rattus Norwegicus


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 08:58:20 AM
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Rotta, thanks for the update. Great info.

What company made the ammo in the box you pictured. I cannot read the bottom of the label. I think it says "Made in Sweden" ? How old is it? Interesting the label is in English.

Yes, I see your point RE: the .30-30 and the 9.3x57R.

How popular was the cartridge over there? Was it a common caliber or always something of an oddball?

I have looked for the Solli book over here. No success so far.

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Rotta
Gunboards Member



Norway
45 Posts
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 2:08:25 PM
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The 9.3x57R/360 ammo is produced by Sellier Bellot in Czekoslovakia, and yes - the text is in english. I don't know the year of produce, but Pettson might have a clue?

The shotshells are classic Gyttorp of Sweden, but unfortunately not blackpowder, but still correct for the period these guns were around in common use I believe.

I do not think the 9.3x57R/360 was ever a very popular calibre in Norway. It may have enjoyed some more success in Sweden where the variety was generally greater, but we have to remember that at the time of the 9.3x57R/360, the smokeless powder was making its entry at the scene, and that both countries had great success with their 6.5x55 guns, both in their armed forces and in the civilian market. The 12.7x44R (military calibre) was very popular as military surplus was available and due to the fact that it could tip a moose on the side, but that one was more or less overnight replaces by 6.5x55 as the common calibre around 1890-1900.

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Rattus Norwegicus


arilar
Gunboards Premium Member



Sweden
244 Posts
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 4:40:27 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Rotta


If you can locate a bookstore with the book - please mail me since I have been unable to find such, and it is out of print!!!! [:-(]

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Seems hard to find!! No luck so far and I have done search world-wide. Do you have exact title of the book and maybe year it was published?
ARILAR


Rotta
Gunboards Member



Norway
45 Posts
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 4:56:29 PM
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As far as I know: Svein Solli: Jegeren Fridtjof Nansen ISBN 82-05-30714-8

This is the one, but not available...

http://www.gnist.no/vare.php?isbn=8205307148

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Rattus Norwegicus

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Edited by - Rotta on 12/23/2006 5:03:48 PM


arilar
Gunboards Premium Member



Sweden
244 Posts
Posted - 12/24/2006 : 08:32:30 AM
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Thanks for details Rotta. Yes, cant be found. Just has to wait 3-4 years and then it will show up secondhand. BTW. must tell about some other Polar-litterature that shouldnt be missed. "The Norwegian with Scott, Tryggve Gran´s Antarctic Diary 1910-13" and Kåre Holts "Kapplöpningen, Amundsen och Scott mot Sydpolen" about the same journey. Forgive me LeeSpeed for getting off topic.
Merry Christmas to you all!!
Regards,
ARILAR


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 12/24/2006 : 09:47:09 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by arilar

Thanks for details Rotta. Yes, cant be found. Just has to wait 3-4 years and then it will show up secondhand. BTW. must tell about some other Polar-litterature that shouldnt be missed. "The Norwegian with Scott, Tryggve Gran´s Antarctic Diary 1910-13" and Kåre Holts "Kapplöpningen, Amundsen och Scott mot Sydpolen" about the same journey. Forgive me LeeSpeed for getting off topic.
Merry Christmas to you all!!
Regards,
ARILAR

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Arilar, thou art forgiven, but only if I can find those books...! I never knew Gran even wrote a book. You bi-, tri and multilingual guys are killing me. So much great stuff to read that I CAN'T!

I have searched for Solli's book also. No dice. Can't find it. I do find it listed for sale...then "No longer Available" and such like that.

Back to the topic for a moment...

Interaction here and with Rotta uncovers the ballistics of this round. It is pretty anemic. Indeed, like my friend says, about like the .32-40.

So a question arise as to the wisdom of the decision to use it on the Nansen Fram drift expedition {all this stuff is pre-'05 so they're Swedes of a sort...}.

Anyway, the ballistics are really, on the surface of it, pathetic, BUT wait a minute, or should I say, WEIGHT a minute!

In the absense of words "from the horses mouth" {I don't have Solli's book}, I'm guessing that the reason it was taken was that at the time {c.1893} it was available in Cape guns and it gave reasonable performance for its weight. It's easy to say "Why didn't they use this or that" and in particular where bear are concerned, something bigger would for sure have given a margin of safety this round lacked, but actually, as proven by many Polar expeditions, a more serious threat to the trekkers was total weight that needed to be carried and ammo is HEAVY. Especially the old swartkrutt rounds. It ALL had to be carried on sleds. For example, Huntford says N/J carried 180 rounds of 9.3x57R. There are many other ballistically "more suitable" rounds but they would have doubled or more the total ammunition weight, a serious problem. So maybe this cartridge makes more sense after all.

What are the model #'s of Husqvarna guns that chambered this round?

Has anybody seen any show up here in the USA?

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.

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Edited by - LeeSpeed on 12/24/2006 09:47:55 AM


Rotta
Gunboards Member



Norway
45 Posts
Posted - 12/25/2006 : 06:44:36 AM
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Hello and Marry Christmas to everyone!

Anemic is a covering term, but keep in mind that it was designed and used for roe deer and bird hunt, and that they at the time had 12,7x44R (1/2") for larger game like moose. Most common hunters would choose the 1/2" for shooting both moose and bird with the same rifle, the 9,3mm beeing an extra gun for the more wealthy hunter wishing to hunt smaller game for sport.

One can wonder why they made guns in such minor calibre as the 9,3x57R/360, but we have to consider that it did have superior long range ballistic properties compared to the 1/2" and as a consquence was a better choise for shooting birds at long range. It may also be the case that it destroyed less meat than the 1/2", a prospect the hunters would appriciate as much then as they do now? The RB rifles chambered for this round was also called bird-rifles.

I think the reason for Nansen to bring such a minor arm was, as LeeSpeed writes, was the wish to keep the weight down, and they also had the possibility to use round balls in their shotgun barrel in a tight spot. Nansen was known to plan his equipment very throughly before going on a trip, and when he crossed Greenland on foot, he chopped the handle off the toothbrushes of the participant to save weight. Every gram counted!

I have translated a passage from the Sollies article on the Husqvarna no 17 I mention above:

"It is a bit strange to think about, that the cartridge Nansen and Johansen shot polare bear and whaleross with, today is considered an minimal roe deer cartridge. Truth is that is also at its prime time was designed for small game and lesser deer game - here home (Norway) and in Sweden, it was brought to market as an alternative for the so called "bird rifles" popular at the time. For sequrity reasons, Nansen and Johansen also broght a number of bullet cartridges for their shot gun barrels...."

As far as the official litterature says, the following models were chambered for the 9,3x57R/360 (hope I haven't overlooked anything...).

Note that it was possible to buy double rifle barrels or cape gun barrels for several of the double barrel shotguns, and also special orders were pretty common. In other words, anything may show up! :)

Cape Guns:
* Model 17C (17A was in 20, 24 or 28 gauge rifle, and 17B was in 12,7x44R)
* Model 48C (48A was in 20, 24 or 28 gauge rifle, and 48B was in 12,7x44R)
* Model 52C (52A was in 20, 24 or 28 gauge rifle, and 52B was in 12,7x44R)

Drilling:
* Model 70

Single shot rifles (rolling blocks, aka "Fågelstudsare" or bird rifles):
* Model 28
* Model 33


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Rattus Norwegicus

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Edited by - Rotta on 12/25/2006 07:35:45 AM
 
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