[eglib]

As the owner of a new Nagant revolver, I would be interested to see a comparison of the chamber pressures of different cartridges in this revolver, preferably in the same form of measurement! psi is good, cup is good, whatever, but something that is easy to compare without a conversion table and calculator. For example, a recent post noted Nagant chamber pressure at 11,000psi. Which "standard" cartridge is this the pressure for? Projectile weight, feet (or meters) per second, and foot-pounds are nice to know, but I think chamber pressure gives me a good idea of whether the gun is likely to blow up in my hand! If I choose to shoot HotShot, Fiocchi, 32 long, 32 H&R Magnum, and whatever else you'd like to give me the figures for, I think this would be a good initial comparison. I did notice the Ruger 327 Magnum listed at 44,000psi! I don't care whether that's a chamber pressure or what, I'm not going near it!
If this information is already posted here somewhere and I missed it, I apologize and await your redirection.

God Save The Czar! (someone should!)
Bruce

 

[point622000]

Hi Eglib,

Look at your reloading book it is listed there.

Please read the on-line discriptions of the rounds your intrested it. All the ammo. manufactures published that info.

NOTE: It is IMPERATIVE, that you do your own research. If we make a error writting you a reply / load info. & you hurt yourself. It would be a terrible shame.

Inventing homemade loads for guns can be a danger to your firearm & yourself.

The new "Shooting Times" issue. I recived to day in the mail, states the 327 Ruger at 45,000 psi & the 32 H&R mag at about 22,000 psi

The article is on page 18 -- Reloading the 327 Federal Magnum--

327 loads listed vary from a high of 1566 FPS to a low of 833 FPS....
How is that for a extreme in velocity with one calbier

Good luck,

point6

 

[jleiper]

The original spec was about 1085 kg/cm2 which converts to about 15439 psi. This resulted in a muzzle velocity of around 270 meters/sec.
Joe

 

[jjk308 In Memoriam RIP]

S&W 32 Long is only 13,900 cup.

Note that this doesn't translate into psi at all since the pressure testing criteria are different for the piezo electric transducers in psi and the cruser guage measurement in cup. Nor does just giving the maximum tell you what the pressure curve looks like. But it is a very wimpy cartridge, throwing a 98 grain lead bullet at only 800 to 850 fps from a 5 inch barrel. You have to assume a Nagant isn't going to have problems with 32 Long and I certainly never have experienced any.

Also, I've read a second hand claim that new european ammo for the Nagant, like Fiocchi, is much lower pressure than the original, due to their new EU safety regulations and its now down in the performance area of the Russian target loads. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[barnetmill]

Chamber pressure of different cartridges in the nagant can be like comparing apples to oranges. Most pressures for revolvers are determined in special "fire arms" that may not reflect the actual pressures that will occur in a nagant. In most revolvers the max pressure occurs when the projectile enters the barrel. The various american .32 loads when fired in the nagant have a long distance to travel prior to reaching the barrel and due to the distance traveled the pressure may not be the same that is determined in a vented pressure gun.

The nagant is stronger than one would think and I have read that some were rechambered for the 7.62 tokarev pistol round. I am sure that this is not a safe conversion, but obviously such guns held together long enough for the conversion to be practical.

I do not shoot anything more than .32 S&W longs in mine, but people do use the .32HR mag. I would not shoot a full .327 ruger magnum load in mine.

 

[jjk308 In Memoriam RIP]

The 7.62x25 chambering isn't practical as too little of the chamber walls would remain even for the riskiest shooter.

I just use 32 Longs also. Some brands do tend to split instead of just swelling, so I avoid them even though with the low pressure there's no danger. The Aguila brand worked fine for me, assuming its still available, shooting tight groups, easy extraction, no splits, and very cheap.

 

[barnetmill]

The 7.62x25 chambering isn't practical as too little of the chamber walls would remain even for the riskiest shooter.

I just use 32 Longs also. Some brands do tend to split instead of just swelling, so I avoid them even though with the low pressure there's no danger. The Aguila brand worked fine for me, assuming its still available, shooting tight groups, easy extraction, no splits, and very cheap.

I did use the word practical in the sense that you could do and use such a conversion and the gun likely will hold together, at least for a while. This conversion is harardous or unsafe and that is what I think we both can agree on. If the converson was not practical the gun would blow up immediately. People for years have been doing harardous and dangerous practices relative to ammo use in revolvers and shot guns. In past times for example there was a high speed 32-20 load intended for 92 winchesters and people would shoot them in double action smiths and colts. Below is an example of a nagant blowing up in a neighboring thread. If you regularly shoot 100's or 1,000's of rounds, the gun will blowup. You can likely fire it a few times to see how it shoots and then carry it for selfdefense then it is practical. Especially if you did not have anything better. You calculate the risks. 1-the gun will likely not blow up if not fired too many times versus 2-not having a gun. Most of us have much safer and better options relative to firearms.

"I did see a guy that had a 7.62 x 25 cylinder conversion Nagant come apart on him. The guy next to him got hit in the neck with fragments. The police were talking to the owner.
He was still shaking about 15 minites after the other guy was take to the hospital.

I never found out what happened, nothing in the local paper. The people at the range would not talk about it.

Good luck,
point6"
By the way I do not like to shoot next to other people if I can help it for many reasons. I know of two cases where defective guns had non-intended discharges. One fellow got wounded and the other case was without injuries.


Some brands do tend to split instead of just swelling
Try wrapping the brands that split with paper or tape.

Anyway we were talking about the pressure of loads and got away from the original question which is no big deal.

 

[Boris Bush]

The original spec was about 1085 kg/cm2 which converts to about 15439 psi. This resulted in a muzzle velocity of around 270 meters/sec.
Joe

I am not an expert on the exact issue. But I do know that the original 98 grain ball ammo for military use was moving more around 335 meter/sec.

The 270 meter/sec is the velocity of the target stuff used in the target versions of the pistol you can find in the yellow box.

Experts, please correct me if I am wrong! I read it somewhere when I researched the cartridge after I got mine........

 

[jleiper]

I am not an expert on the exact issue. But I do know that the original 98 grain ball ammo for military use was moving more around 335 meter/sec.

The 270 meter/sec is the velocity of the target stuff used in the target versions of the pistol you can find in the yellow box.

Experts, please correct me if I am wrong! I read it somewhere when I researched the cartridge after I got mine........

OK - You're wrong. The original spec from the time the revolver was accepted was 300 meters per sec. Most was loaded to about 285 m/sec. I don't believe the Nagant cartridge was ever loaded by the Russians or Soviets to over 300 m/sec. The spec. on the "stuff in the yellow box" or B-1 cartridge is 185-195 m/sec.

Joe

 

[bankerbilly]

So . . .

285 meters/second would be about 925 feet/second -- and 300 meters/second would be about 975 feet/second - correct ? ?

Thanks ! !

 

[jleiper]

So . . .

285 meters/second would be about 925 feet/second -- and 300 meters/second would be about 975 feet/second - correct ? ?

Thanks ! !

Close enough, but really 935 and 985 f/sec is an accurate conversion. Certainly not that fast.
Joe

 

[point622000]

Hi Guys,

After the new year, I'm going to drag out the cronograph!

I have been loading with data from reloading manuals & some loads for the good guys at the " Cast boolit board ".
They have been on the money before, but I should check for myself.

Joe did you get my PM on the Nagant in question? I had a bounce back on your E-mail address so I sent a back up PM message.

Best to all,
point6

 

[Boris Bush]

Found it.

I shoot 32 H&R magnums that run 1167 fps all the time from mine and see no reason why 7.62 Nagant loaded to the same velocity would pose any kind of problem.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x38mmR

 

[jleiper]

Found it.

I shoot 32 H&R magnums that run 1167 fps all the time from mine and see no reason why 7.62 Nagant loaded to the same velocity would pose any kind of problem.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x38mmR

Don't believe everything you read on the web!

First, you asked what the spec was on the ammo, I gave you the factory specs from published Russian/Soviet sources.
Second, the article is in error. NO Russian source I've seen, and that's quite a few, on military ammunition says anything over 300 m/sec. - most show less.

Remember, this gun was originally one of the first designed to use both black powder, semi-smokeless and true smokeless powder. You are loading to about 20% higher than the factory ammunition was rated. I don't doubt that the Nagant will handle it in the short term, but I still don't think it wise.
One of the issues I have always wondered about - if you run real Nagant ammo, there is a gas seal and pressure doesn't drop after the bullet passes into the barrel due to leakage. When you use short ammo, there is leakage and the pressure drops a bit. The Nagant ammo with gas seal is supposed to give about a 20% increase in velocity over the same loads without gas seal (more than shown in your article)- that means quite a bit of leakage. I feel that that leakage is probably saving a few fingers and hands.

Joe

 

[Boris Bush]

Don't believe everything you read on the web!

First, you asked what the spec was on the ammo, I gave you the factory specs from published Russian/Soviet sources.
Second, the article is in error. NO Russian source I've seen, and that's quite a few, on military ammunition says anything over 300 m/sec. - most show less.

Remember, this gun was originally one of the first designed to use both black powder, semi-smokeless and true smokeless powder. You are loading to about 20% higher than the factory ammunition was rated. I don't doubt that the Nagant will handle it in the short term, but I still don't think it wise.
One of the issues I have always wondered about - if you run real Nagant ammo, there is a gas seal and pressure doesn't drop after the bullet passes into the barrel due to leakage. When you use short ammo, there is leakage and the pressure drops a bit. The Nagant ammo with gas seal is supposed to give about a 20% increase in velocity over the same loads without gas seal (more than shown in your article)- that means quite a bit of leakage. I feel that that leakage is probably saving a few fingers and hands.

Joe

I know, but alot of the ammo we shoot and all the published reloading data we 'use' is vaginized domestic SAAMI spec ammo. Original 1902 9x19mm was loaded to a spec that today would have to be labeled +P+ if it were loaded in this country. I have a Viht loading manual from the early 90s and it gives SAAMI and CIP loads as well as the max psi. CIP has no "+P" rateings so when a CIP company loads to the maximum CIP pressure of 39,200 psi and someone used to shooting vaginized domestic loaded ammo shoots S&B or Fiocchi and notes the bigger boom, more recoil and harder hit target they start a thinkin', maybe....... Viht even publishes a load for 147 grain 9x19mm that moves at 1207fps and does it within safe pressures. I imagine it has a good amount of recoil aswell. That 9mm 147 is only a little lighter and about 70fps slower than a 40S&W 155 load. 32 acp, CIP loads it to 26,000 psi. That is about 6,000 psi more than the vaginized crud remington sells us.

I read some soldiers reviews that used it in battle and a few remarked it would put down a horse pretty reliabley. That is not what some tinkerer of collector said. It was an end user that used the weapon for its intended purpose. Not a 'ballistics experts' opinion. I read it from more than one source that it was speced to 1100 fps for a 97-98 grain bullet.

The HotShot ammo I shoot hits to the same POI as the 32 H&R mags I shoot, recoil feels the same, the cases push right out and my gun has never split a case. It does a swell job on coyotes and small game.

This one puts it at 1080. http://www.chuckhawks.com/nagant_revolver.htm

 

[jleiper]

Interesting that you mention horses. The original criteria for the pistol was the following:
1. Good accuracy at 35 to 50 paces and sufficient energy to kill a horse with one bullet.
2. 3 line caliber so that it is possible to use rejected rifle barrels in its manufacture.
3. Brass case with a rim, cylindrical in shape, easy to manufacture with a jacketed bullet.
4. Muzzle velocity at about 300 m/sec.

The problem is that we are talking about a design that is 113 years old and the cartridge design is older. Old guns should not be over pressured and this one wasn't designed for more than about 16,000 psi. Some maybe safe to shoot with your "magnum" loads but you won't see me doing it.

This has been the subject of many posts on this board. All I can say is that if you have a gun and choose to shoot it with over design loads, I don't want to be around when you do it. Especially beside you at the range where I am trying to shoot. I hope you have good insurance.
Joe

 

[barnetmill]

...
2. 3 line caliber so that it is possible to use rejected rifle barrels in its manufacture.
....
Joe

I understand that it was similar reasoning that in part led to the adoption 7.62 tokarev pistol cartridge. They could use the same barrel boring-rifling machinery for both pistol and rifle barrels

 

[jleiper]

I don't know that to be true, but it wouldn't surprise me at all! However, the Soviets really liked the 7.63 mm Mauser cartridge which is dimensionally identical to the Tokarev cartridge.
It's worth researching.
(The Russians got the idea of using rejected barrels from the French who did the same thing with their 1892 Lebel revolver)
Joe

 

[Sailor]

Have used Fiocchi, 32 longs, 32 ACP, and 32 H&R mags.

I’ve shot 32 H&R mags out of the Nagant and also the French M1892 revolver. The Nagants shoot all day long, the French 1892 revolver seized up after 26 rounds.

Am aware that the Nagant revolver has also been successfully converted to 9mm para and 7.62 x 25 Tok, however, I have never seen a Russian arsenal conversion so must deduce these calibers are too hot.

4 million Russian Nagant revolvers made, but for some odd reason, there is no milsurp ammo from the 40s or 30s or earlier available.

My experience with milsurp ammo is that it is generally hotter than commercially made ammo, and I’ve shot much milsurp, some as old as the 1920s.

Now if the original military tests did call for a horse to be killed with one shot at 25 paces (and it wasn’t a geriatric candidate headed for the glue factory…smuggled in by the Nagant brothers) then the battle cartridge had to be in 210 ft lb 1100 ft/sec range….or else when the revolver fired that horse got spooked and dropped dead of a heart attack.

However, the Nagant revolver saw a lot action in a lot of battles and wars….yet I have never heard or read a complaint regarding its lethality.

The Nagant pistol cartridge continues to be one of the enduring mysteries of the universe.

 

[jleiper]

Am aware that the Nagant revolver has also been successfully converted to 9mm para and 7.62 x 25 Tok, however, I have never seen a Russian arsenal conversion so must deduce these calibers are too hot.

Not only too hot, but dangerous!

4 million Russian Nagant revolvers made, but for some odd reason, there is no milsurp ammo from the 40s or 30s or earlier available.

There didn't used to be a market for it so nobody imported it. There is some around but not in commercial quantities. Also some of the prewar Russian stuff is steel core and thus forbidden for import.

My experience with milsurp ammo is that it is generally hotter than commercially made ammo, and I’ve shot much milsurp, some as old as the 1920s.

Now if the original military tests did call for a horse to be killed with one shot at 25 paces (and it wasn’t a geriatric candidate headed for the glue factory…smuggled in by the Nagant brothers) then the battle cartridge had to be in 210 ft lb 1100 ft/sec range….or else when the revolver fired that horse got spooked and dropped dead of a heart attack.

The load was never that high. I've shot a lot of surplus and target ammo and you never hear a 'crack'. Above about 1050 fps you get that (which is why Makarov and PSM ammunition is loaded to that velocity!). Besides your silencer wouldn't be effective if it was loaded that high. The bullets used weighed between 6.5 and 7 grams (100 -108 grains). Most of the target loads are a bit lighter - less than 6.5 g. bullet weight.
The published velocity from initial testing to the end of production was 300 m/sec. or 985 ft/sec. Target stuff is 2/3 that. If somebody has a reliable chronograph, it would be nice to see what the old stuff really does, but my money says it will be less that 1000 ft/sec.

Your horse bit is the best explanation I've heard. LOL

However, the Nagant revolver saw a lot action in a lot of battles and wars….yet I have never heard or read a complaint regarding its lethality.
The Nagant pistol cartridge continues to be one of the enduring mysteries of the universe.

I don't think there is any mystery. It was an advanced design when it was adopted, but has endured because the pistol using it was easy to use and repair. The target versions are still in use today and the TOZ-49 set a world record in 2007 using gas seal cartridges!

Joe