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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Over the years I've heard several things. 1st that none were issued and that Soviet troops kept them either in the fixed position, or put them on upside down with blade facing backwards. 2nd that some leather scabbards were issued, but not many.


Apart from the Finnish scabbards that IMA used to, or still does sell, I don't think I've ever seen a real Soviet issue scabbard for one.
 

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There were no Russian or Soviet scabbards for the Mosin rifle bayonets. The countries that issued scabbards for them were Austro-Hungary (steel), Germany (steel), Romania (leather) and Finland (leather).
 

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There were no Russian or Soviet scabbards for the Mosin rifle bayonets. The countries that issued scabbards for them were Austro-Hungary (steel), Germany (steel), Romania (leather) and Finland (leather).

Correct me if I'm wrong Nick , but I thought I read that early Chatellerault M91's come from the mfg. with Scabbards ?
 

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I have never seen a picture or a description of a scabbard for the three-line rifle in use by the Russians.

Scabbards issued in much smaller quantities survived - for the Krnka rifle, for the Berdan 2 rifle. If they were made in quantity for the Mosin rifle some would have survived and certainly would have been described.
 

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I have never seen a picture or a description of a scabbard for the three-line rifle in use by the Russians.

Scabbards issued in much smaller quantities survived - for the Krnka rifle, for the Berdan 2 rifle. If they were made in quantity for the Mosin rifle some would have survived and certainly would have been described.


I found the link to the early Chatellerault scabbards

http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareKHChat.htm
 

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What about the zinc scabbards, who made those?
 

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"Trial". I am talking issue.
 

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Must have been a pretty big "trial". There used to be dozens of them on ebay.
 

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Russians loved those silly fixed bayonets and Finns loved small sharp knives. You choose which works better in CQB. Yeah, I vote for knives as well.
The minor casualties among Soviet troops from accidently sticking each other on the run or march must have been staggering...never heard of a Finn complaining because nobody gave him a bayonet along with his M39.
Still, Zaitsev tells of actually getting bayoneted in the back at Stalingrad - probably his own guys fell into a ditch on top of him as the Germans didn't really love bayonets all that well either.
 

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Not ten years ago there were many scabbards available in leather made as reproductions for different bayonets that fit Mosins and at times were I believe wrongly ID'd as Mosin bayonet scabbards. I have a few of them which I picked up from S&S which is a Civil War and North South Skirmish Assn vendor. They are not available anymore but were made out of a dark brown leather with a brass ball tip on them. They were made for period reproduction Civil War weapons and just happen to fit Mosin Bayonets. I have seen several of them sold on Fleabay as Mosin bayonets but I am pretty sure they are the ones I found years ago that have been intentionally or not miss-ID'd and sold for way over the $5 a piece I bought them for years ago. It seems a consensus of people believe there never were an issue of bayonets to Russian soldiers in any great amount or as a standard issue. Other than that statement I have no other thoughts. Bill
 

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Hello Gents,

Per Nick's comments, there was no Russian manufactured issue scabbard for the M1891 Three-Line rifle by WWI. During trials, who knows?

While there is mention of some number of scabbards having been produced early on by Chatellerault, I have never seen a physical example nor have I seen a photograph that featured a scabbard that could be attributed to French production until I looked at your link Patrick. How many were actually produced is unknown, or at least I have yet to come across such info in any published source I know of. I don't recall Karl-Heinz as having listed production numbers in either of his books? If they did exist in reasonable quantities early on, they appear to have all pretty much disappeared before WWI or they would appear regularly in the photographic record.

As far as the picture you posted Patrick, the shot of the scabbard is not clear enough to positively ID the scabbard. It could be Russian, from trials or otherwise, or it might be a captured German or Austro-Hungarian scabbard. It might be the scabbard for an earlier Russian or foreign issue socket bayonet. Austria-Hungary used the leather scabbards from some of their earlier pattern muzzle loading rifles with some of their bayonets during WWI. Based on what appears to be a bright "button" showing through the frog, that may be the brass stud on a German ersatz zinc scabbard???









Had the Russians manufactured much larger than trials quantities of scabbards, they would show up in the photographic evidence and larger numbers would exist today. Fairly large numbers of Austro-Hungarian as well as German scabbards have survived, why not Russian examples?

Russian soldiers issued foreign rifles such as the M95 Winchester, the Type 30, 35 and 38 Arisakas, the French Mle 1874 Gras, etc. are quite frequently pictured with the appropriate frog and scabbard for the foreign bayonets. I've looked at literally thousands of WWI vintage Russian soldiers and have yet to see any scabbard directly attributable to the M91 Three-Line rifle. Small numbers, i.e. trials or early Chatellerault production that was most likely discontinued early on, but nothing that was standard issue by WWI.

Hope this info helps.

Happy New Year!

JPS
 

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I know Joe L borrowed my book 'La Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault' by Claude Lombard taking high resolution photos of the chapter of the French made 1891's and mentioned within the text is the bayonet and scabbard they made for the Russians, it had the whole contract, in French, of what was expected, plans, drawings of each item.

Patrick
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I Knew I remember seeing a WWII Soviet soldier wearing a leather bayonet scabbard somewhere. In one of my books!!

This is taken from Andrew Mollo's "Army Uniforms of WWII" These are ACTUAL photographs that were colored for reference images.

While they weren't "issued items" this guy clearly had one. Maybe because he was an NCO?

 

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Right, just 200 steel scabbards were made in Chatellerault for the Russian rifles MN.
Hello Karl-Heinz!

Happy New Year Bud!

Thank you for your input. I would certainly consider 200 examples to be a small amount, even for trials. As I'm sure everyone knows by now, my interest and knowledge base peters out when WWI ended in 1920, so I can't add any meaningful input regarding any scabbards that might have been issued during WWII .

Referring back to the thread that Patrick linked, I think Joe's estimated value of $500 to $700 for a Chatellerault scabbard is extremely low considering how much bayonet collectors will generally spend for extremely rare examples.

All the best to you and the Kids in 2014, the Year of the Horse!

Happy New Year!

John
 

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I Knew I remember seeing a WWII Soviet soldier wearing a leather bayonet scabbard somewhere. In one of my books!!

This is taken from Andrew Mollo's "Army Uniforms of WWII" These are ACTUAL photographs that were colored for reference images.

While they weren't "issued items" this guy clearly had one. Maybe because he was an NCO?

Hello Panzerfaust44,

A captured Finnish scabbard? It does look as though it's made out of leather and is very much like the Finnish examples I have seen.

Happy New Year!

John
 

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I Knew I remember seeing a WWII Soviet soldier wearing a leather bayonet scabbard somewhere. In one of my books!!

This is taken from Andrew Mollo's "Army Uniforms of WWII" These are ACTUAL photographs that were colored for reference images.

While they weren't "issued items" this guy clearly had one. Maybe because he was an NCO?
And this proves what exactly? No scabbards were issued to the Russian Imperial Army and to the Red Army. One needs to distinguish between "captured and used" and "issued".
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
And this proves what exactly? No scabbards were issued to the Russian Imperial Army and to the Red Army. One needs to distinguish between "captured and used" and "issued".

I appreciate your distincton between "captured and used" and "issued" but either way the photo proves "some" WWII soviet soldiers did have them..........regardless of "how" they got them.
 

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