Gunboards Forums banner

1 - 1 of 1 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,245 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2007 : 8:22:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With special thanks to Kwahe, more jugs and boards were shot today. Main purpose was to shoot the 232 grain Norma Vulkan in the 9.3x57 Husky 146 and the 196 grain Wolf Gold 8x57 in the 640. Others were shot for comparison.

Test shooting done at 20 yards. SOP is 1 1/2" plywood board followed by 1 water-filled milk jug and so on. One shot is placed on the dot on the coyote target to verify zero, then the next on the test media. Here's Sonny doing some of the shooting:

Download Attachment:
167.42 KB

Middle is the Norma, right hand the 220 grain Hornady. On the left is a 285 grain Prvi Partizan for comparison:

Download Attachment:
136.38 KB

Recovered Bullets, Left-to-Right:

Download Attachment:
89.35 KB

9.3mm Norma Vulkan, fired from 9.3x57 Husqvarna Model 146, handloaded to velocity 2208 fps. Full penetration of 3 boards and 3 jugs, bullet found stuck in 4th board pictured. Expansion .68", recovered weight 197 grains, 85%.

Download Attachment:
146.66 KB

Hornady .375 caliber Flat Point resized to .365", fired from Husqvarna Model 146, handloaded to velocity 2275 fps. Full penetration 3 boards and 2 jugs, dented far side of 3rd jug, bullet found in 3rd jug. Expansion .62, recovered weight 143 grains, 65%.

Wolf Gold 196 grain Soft Point fired from Husqvarna M640, factory load 2151 fps. Full penetration 5 boards and 4 jugs, dented 6th board and found on ground 2 feet to left of the table. Expansion .56", recovered weight 172 grains, 88%.

Hornady 220 RN soft fired from Ruger M77LH handloaded to 2439 fps. Full penetration 4 boards and 3 jugs, dented 4th jug. Core and jacket found lying next to each other, separated, on table. Expansion .62", recovered weight 128 grains, 58%.

Winchester 180 grain Power Point fired from Ruger M77LH handloaded to 2655 fps. Full penetration 3 boards and 2 jugs, found in the 3rd jug. Expansion .66", recovered weight 136 grains, 76%.

Some commentary is in order, and I'd value any observations anyone has on the subject, too. Comparisons with previously shot bullets can be made finding the previous posts.

First, the 232 Vulkan feeds slicker than a plate of chocolate chip cookies through a Beagle. Feels nice in the action. Terminal performance was quite good, though I confess I was a bit sceptical just looking at the thing, since it looks like a HP without the hole. I was wrong. I don't know what the core construction is, but it opened up very nicely, held together, expanded reasonably well and overall appears to be a winner in this caliber. Granted, the load I shot did not attain my desired 2300-2400 fps and a bit more impact velocity might effect its performance somewhat, but it appears to have plenty of strength to hold together at close range even with a little more speed and in fact such speed might even improve its performance. I like this bullet a lot. I will, however, probably stick with the Prvi Partizan 285 grain bullet in my 9.3x57's as previous tests demonstrate it gives a bit more penetration and expansion. A possible advantage of the Norma might be some extended range if significantly higher muzzle velocity can be obtained.

Please note the 220 Hornady resized bullet gave identical performance to the previous test thus giving some insight into the repeatability of this method. This arrangement should make for a bomb on broadside hit deer, but I won't use it on elk. It should be just the ticket for treed mountain lion with the 9.3x57!!

Both the .375/.365 Hornady and the 9.3 Norma were propelled by 46 grains of IMR3031 and while the extreme velocity spread was acceptable, accuracy was very poor, with the Vulkans unexpectedly approximating the expectedly poor grouping of the resized bullets. I will not use this load again! Another frustration from following the material obtained from Sturm's Handloader article! Uhg...

I did get some backed out primers with it. So maybe once again the Low Pressure Gremlin is at work? I don't know, but 3031 burns fast enough that I really do not want to increase the load much.

The Wolf Gold factory load was quite accurate out of my Husky and very east to shoot, no doubt due to the fact that velocity fell far short of the listed 2400 fps + -. Expansion was iffy, however, being nearly equaled by my 6.5x55 using Rem 140 PSPCL bullets at 2590 fps!

At any rate, if using this factory load on deer, I would totally ignore the reasction of the animal to the shot, and assume a strike and search and track accordingly. On broadside shots in particular, I can imagine the bullet not opening up much at all and a "dead" critter going quite a ways before figuring it out. Having said that, the bullet does penetrate, and it might be just the ticket for the 8x57 when the critter presents the shooter with a "Texas Heart Shot". I do not consider it a good all-around load for the 8x57. Possibly hollow-pointing the bullets might help? I should try this, as the load shoots very accurately from my rifle, is fun to shoot and is cheap. But it needs help to make it a good deer load in my opinion and does not hold a candle to the performance of the fine Lapua factory ammo tested previously.

The .30-06 loads are included to give some perspective to the 9.3. First, my opinion is that the 220 Hornady needs some help. It opens up pretty quick and would make a great deer bullet, but I am having second thoughts about it for elk. My kid wants nothing to do with it. He hates core seps and he likes those 180 grain Winchester Power Points, and for good reason. Great expansion and good penetration make it a winner, and it certainly holds its own with the Vulkan, thought the latter has more weight and better retention of that weight for a similar expansion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.

Kwahe
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
128 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2007 : 9:36:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lee........nice!
Your metaphors are really quite.....alarming. Cookies through a Beagle?....terrible! And very very effective!
Sounds like the Norma might be an ideal deer slug, where the Prvi would be more suitable for elk and moose?
I wonder if the Vulkan is the descendant of the Norma PPC (protected power cavity), which Al Miller mentioned in his work with the 9.3x62 in Big Bore. Any one know about this? The Vulkan sure looks like the PPC pic in his article. Miller thought the PPC ideal for all around in the x62, and those velocities are 2500 fps territory. It was supposed to open immediately upon striking, but only moderately, and then penetrate deeply. That's the theory, anyway.
Once again, Lee, you've expanded our knowledge in the area of terminal ballistics. Tremendous thunderous thanks!
Kwahe


GSP7
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
225 Posts
Posted - 01/25/2007 : 12:37:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lee, the picture of the 3 bullets, the hornaday 220. Is that Hornaday pictured a 375 bullet cut down to .365? How did you resize it?

I have some 232gr Norma Oryx bullets on the way from grafs that I ordered monday. One of the guys from the AR forum knows the norma bullets well and He says the Oryx is a tougher bullet than the Vulcan. The Oryx is a bonded core bullet though it is supposed to expand rapidly. The Vulcan is not bonded and is also a rapid expanding bullet. There is also a discription on the Norma site of their bullets


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 01/25/2007 : 09:34:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GSP7:

The Flat Point Hornady is a .375 caliber bullet originally designed for the .375 Winchester caliber and it starts out at, yes, .375 diameter. When I first dove into the 9.3 endeavor I didn't know too many sources for bullets, had not yet met my favored Prvi Partizan 285's and I really didn't want to spend my days of load development filling my backstop with bullets costing a buck a pop. My trusted and favored old game-killing SAKO .375 H&H was sitting in my safe more-or-less unused due to a nerve condition in my shooting shoulder and I had lots of .375 cal bullet lying about, so I had LEE make me a custom die.

The die is a simple push-thru type like their cast bullet sizing dies:

"Bullet Sizing Die Honed to .364" with Taper for Jacketed Bullets".

That's the proper descriptive term and believe me it took us a while and several botched attempts before we got it. In fact, I don't think LEE will knowingly make a die to reduce .375 cal bullets to .365 anymore as a result of the whole affair. They were great to work with though they did make a few really silly mistakes early on which they made good on. Predicting springback was ultimately the trouble. A .364 die will allow springback to .366 inch and the bullet is not particularly concentric due to the mass of material that must be shoved about. Some lead will in fact extrude out from the top of the bullet as I think you can see in the pic's.

I resize them TWICE which makes them .365" diameter and they are more concentric. I REALLY appreciate the tenacity of the LEE folks and anybody that reads this can tell them I said so. With me, they have been a great company with which to do business.

Regarding the die, my experience is that with long bullets, you can expect a certain amount of "Banana-isation" and inaccuracy as a result. The shorter configurations like the Hornady 220 FP do better. With the "better" bullets {Horn 220 FP's}, accuracy is on the order of about 4-6 inches at 100 meters from sitting on the tire for 5 shots. Yes, deer killable.

In fact though, the first critter I ever killed with the 9.3x57 was one of two wolf-crazed steers that broke out of my neighbor's corral and fled up the mountain. They defied all attempts to round them up or coax them back home and finally the owner sent my son and me out to hunt them down. He was worried that the very wolves that sent them up there would wind up killing them up there. I used my then unmodified, iron-sighted Husky 146 and the only load I knew at the time: Hornady 270 grain .375 diameter bullet sized down to .365 over a heavy charge or 4895. Accuracy was minute-of-crazy-cattle. I hit the bovine on a steep south-facing slope as it ran for some dense brush. The shot was 70 yards and high above me. Bullet gave full penetration, striking the low shoulder and exiting high on the off shoulder and the critter, all 1000 lbs of it as it turned out to be, came rolling down the mountain towards me, bellowing the whole way and literally flattening small trees and tough serviceberry and finally hanging up in a dense patch of heavy buckbrush about 30 yards above me. I shot it again in the neck and this bullet too went for yonder mountain after shattering a bucketfull of neck vertebrae.

All that to tell you that a bullet that will barely keep ten shots inside Elmer's upturned sombrero will still kill big chunks of meat.

The Norma bullets are really curious-looking to me. Very sleek, very easy-feeding, but with those turned-in jackets at the point, looking for all the world like they'd either snick thru like a FMJ or blow up like a target HP. My intuition seems to fail me there in the case of the Vulkan, though I haven't shot anything at say 200 yards with it where the reduced velocity and maximum gyroscopic stability might contribute to less-than-desireable expansion.

According to that Norsk article passed around a while back, this Vulkan just might be a primo bullet for the x57 and x62.

Posted game shooting results from Sweden would sure help us here...

HINT! HINT!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - LeeSpeed on 01/25/2007 11:02:55 AM


A.P.Ball
Gunboards Member



USA
47 Posts
Posted - 01/25/2007 : 4:21:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kwahe, LeeSpeed, GSP7,-- I am learning an incredible amount from you. Thanks. I can only repay with bits and pieces, often trivial. But we do what we can. I have an ancient box of Norma 6.5x55, one end of which labels the bullet as PPC, while the other end says Vulkan. The back of the box is entirely in Swedish, and the ballistic information is metric. The bullet is not really a hollowpoint, in spite of the appearance. The so called "Protected Power Cavity" has the jacket extend a little beyond the lead tip to encourage slick chambering while preventing deformation. Upon impact, the bullet expands as if there were a lot of lead exposed.
A little OT: I'm beginning to think I need a 146 in 8x57. Can anyone think of a reason why I shouldn't? apb


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 01/25/2007 : 9:05:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

APBall: Thank you for clearing up the mystery!!! Mr K and I and I bet others have been wondering about that one!

I'm wondering if from a marketing standpoint, "PPC" just flat sounded as enticing as a bug on the windshield and the Svenskers dumped that sobriquet in favor of the tougher and tastier "Vulkan".

Quien sabe??

As for a 146 in 8x57, Im thinking the only reason for not getting one is that you are getting a 640...first!

PS: Where are those shooting tests from Sweden???





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Ordtech
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
150 Posts
Posted - 01/25/2007 : 11:34:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great stuff as usual LeeSpeed! I appreciate the effort it takes to do repeated setups of your test equipment and parameters, particularly in the cold.
In '05 I had poor accurracy and backed out primers with hefty loads of 3031. I went back to IMR 4895, too! One rifle powder for everything makes life simple.

A.P - Get an 8x57 and you'll be jumping on Oprah's couch too! Oh, my 46 is my favorite rifle over all the Winchesters, Mausers, M1s, M21...but a surplus 8x57 was my first centerfire rifle and still favorite cartridge.
Well, My Lyman dispenser is warmed up (yeah I'm lazy). I'm going to load Nosler 8mm 180 BTs to work up this weekend. I can't duplicate Lee's fine terminal tests but will post accurracy results on rough order of magnitude .5 grain. I sort of know what to expect in the pressure dept. until I get over 48 grains. Then I drop to .2 grain intervals. Weaver k4 on FN action, great bore, beach stock stained a velvety chocolate, poor bluing for a Husky.
OT


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2007 : 10:01:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding these 8x57's...

Unscoped the Husky guns are fairly light and with some loads really kick. My 8x57 kicks noticeably more than my 9.3x57's and it does effect my shooting over long shot strings from field positions at 100 meters. In iron-sighted guns like the Husky's where a guy doesn't want to D/T, recoil means something. That Wolf 196 grain load is a VERY comfortable load, not really surprising considering the low-ish velocity of the thing. It also shoots very accurately, but I don't really like the terminal performance. This testing sort of starts a ball rolling that doesn't end...

Anyway, I think a few rounds hollow-pointed and then retested might be in order. If the accuracy is good, the penetration good and the bullet opens up a bit more than it does un-altered, this Wolf Gold/Prvi Partizan load might be a 8mm Lite load that just might offer Lite Husky shooters another good option for deer and even elk up close.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.
 
1 - 1 of 1 Posts
Top