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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
More on Fake NCO swords....PICS posted!
Topic:
Topic author: pacific-war44
Subject: More on Fake NCO swords....PICS posted!
Posted on: 02/21/2006 11:41:15 PM
Message:
Well I met the enemy face to face today,a DAMN good fake NCO sword.Not online or GreedPay like as usual,but in the little southern AL militaria shop I frequent.While loitering(I live next door) there this morn a pleasant fella walked in and asked the owner if he collected Japanese stuff.My ears began to ring,heh.When told to bring it in he schlepped in a typical looking alum.handle brass tsuba model.When the owner scanned it over the seller commented he KNEW it was repainted(handle/scabbard) in the past and expected a low dollar offer.I don't just butt in so I kept a low profile.When the owner gave him $275 for it the guy looked happy and trotted out.Then the shop owner hands it to me with a $350 offer.I don't really need another,got a minty one as it is,but I checked it out anyways.At first it looked and felt proper,till I noticed the ser no. and arsenal,,,03619 and Kokura/Tokyo?? The nuber was neat but upside-down on the blade,and shouldn't be a copper handle at that point? The scabbard # was missing the inspection mark prefix,hmmm.And the brass aoi shaped tsuba was kinda wavey in places and the square hole at the top(for the knot)was off center.The alum.wrap and menukis were first rate cast,like they used an original for the mold.The knot loop was a perfect triangle,not a smoother angle bail,allbeit rusty.The brass ferril for the loop was too skinny and lightweight compared to my original.The blade was just a tad too narrow edge to back,though high tensil and sharp,and well made.The arsenal marks looked pretty dam good,Tokyo/Kok.-small insp.-and the "harp" type stamp found on that arsenal sword,BUT,they were sqenched in tight together,like they were stamped from a single die,not individually applied.The paint was a dreadful poop-brown gloss purpously scratched off in places on the handle,and an even satin o.d. green on the scabbeard.And BS dents made by the same tool along the scabbard body,for effect.The hang ring was much thinner than my real Nagoya and no wear groves in the suspension ring where it intersects.The drag chape was also a sloppy rendition of a Nagoya scabbard(on a Kokura?)with the 2 bumps.Overall the fitt and quality were top notch,hell I bet it cost some Pakistanis or such nearly $200 to build this abomination of the militaria world.My dealer buddy insists the small mount of b.s. rust here and there makes it real in his books,and insists on a $400 price tag.He's a Civil War expert,he needs to stay away from WW2! Hey T-14,if your in the neighborhhod and come by this shop,avoid that one! I'll try to get some pics posted if possible,stay tuned....Scott

Replies:

Reply author: BradB
Replied on: 02/22/2006 03:07:46 AM
Message:
Scott; great observations! Any SN that starts with zero on a sword is bogus. Your are also correct on the annealed copper handle up through 6K plus a bit. Likewise, the early scabbards for those SN swords have no drag at all. Kokura SNs read with blade edge pointing towards the floor; Nagoya with spine towards floor. The books on the subject out there are no real help in ID-ing fakes other than general knowledge of "right". The guy faking the sword (if he did it versus finding out about it) probably made a bit of cash on the deal and snickered about his capability as a forger. Never could understand that type of dishonesty. I think what I will do later (maybe this weekend) is post some photos stem to stern of some real examples of different types for reference.

Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 02/22/2006 09:02:21 AM
Message:
I'll try to get some out on this one too,it's a fine study piece on what can go WRONG with a sword deal.I'm just glad he only payed @ a little more than these usually go for new,around $200.It's similar to the one on that repo site both you and I have posted on here,only aged a bit state-side.It would fool me at a glance,till you go CSI on it's azz....would make a dandy cat,err snake killer! Scott

Reply author: Gregg
Replied on: 02/22/2006 6:10:02 PM
Message:
I gave you guys a heads up on these second pattern NCO swords coming out of China last Fall.
I saw my first ones in Beijing last September.
For some reason the serial number was stamped upside down all all of them, but they all had different seial numbers!
They are getting better and better with the reproductions.
Right now ot is buyer beware with any aluminum handled NCO sword.
Regards, Gregg


Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 02/23/2006 8:33:55 PM
Message:
Try this link for the pics....http://community.webtv.net/scottsouth66/FakeNCOSword

Reply author: Patrik
Replied on: 02/24/2006 02:48:12 AM
Message:
Thoose are getting to good.....


Patrik


Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 02/24/2006 09:14:47 AM
Message:
BTW Patrik,compare this sword's features with that one I sold you.You will notice things like the brass fitting at the tassel loop too skinny,the square hole in the tsuba is cut off center(early swords had quality)and the ser# is WAY too low for this batch,no "0"numbers recorded on NCOs.Several other key points too_Other than that the blade is finely machined and high tensil,and ther is rust under the habaki collar and on the latch/tassel loop.Would fool all but the savy-est. Scott

Reply author: MP-43
Replied on: 02/26/2006 08:13:30 AM
Message:
I'm wondering how hard and fast a rule is the serial number stamping orientation--Kokura read with blade edge down, Nagoya w/ spine edge down? I have a Kokura stamped NCO sword that I am 100% sure is not a repro with the serial stamped "wrong". Just food for thought...


I will try and get some pics posted later today...if I can figure out how (read the FAQs and still don't quite follow)


Reply author: BradB
Replied on: 02/26/2006 08:49:55 AM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by MP-43
I'm wondering how hard and fast a rule is the serial number stamping orientation--Kokura read with blade edge down, Nagoya w/ spine edge down? I have a Kokura stamped NCO sword that I am 100% sure is not a repro with the serial stamped "wrong". Just food for thought...
I will try and get some pics posted later today...if I can figure out how (read the FAQs and still don't quite follow)
There are NO absolutes, but some pretty general rules to go by. An inspection always has to go by totality of circumstance. (Accepted Features, provenance, age and wear). Also, just because the seller has a story doesn't make it so. Trust your eyes and not some stranger.

Reply author: MP-43
Replied on: 02/26/2006 10:42:32 PM
Message:
Here are some pics of the Kokura NCO I picked up at a local community auction back in '95. Note that the serial is "upside down" by Kokura standards.

http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9543&d=1191779453
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Reply author: MP-43
Replied on: 02/26/2006 11:38:56 PM
Message:
Okay, just realized that the stamps at the scabbard tip, in front of the serial number, and on the copper whatchmacallit look a lot like the Nagoya "na"--so the serial number facing the spine makes sense. So what is up with the kokura arsenal mark? Teach me...

Reply author: BradB
Replied on: 02/27/2006 05:39:41 AM
Message:
You have a gorgeous Nagoya supervised sword! Almost all NCOs (until the last production batches with painted black steel fuchis) had their fittings sub-contracted from the Kokura arsenal (including those finished and proofed at Nagoya). I don't say Koishikawa because some bear the subcontract mark of the 1st Tokyo Army Arsenal; but I do need to do some more research. I have one in my collection with a Nagoya stamp where the Kokura cannonballs normally are, and one with nothing but a small "na" proof on the fuchi. Your photos are also a GREAT study of an all correct sword including some things that the fakers have not gotten to yet. For example, there is a production contract run like yours where the paint on the cherry blossoms looks like a thin orange shellaq rather than flat paint. On other contracts where the brown paint is lighter, they are a heavy yellow paint. In other words, there are "correct" variations in paint that one can recognize with handling experience. Not a stand-alone criteria; one to be taken in context with the originality of the rest of the sword.


Another difference between Kokura and Nagoya swords are the drags. Here they are side by side. Nagoya is on top; notice the more pronounced downward sweep and the "hump" on the leading edge where the scabbard would touch the ground. Most repops are Kokura style; notice how the bottom and top width and contours are a little off on the repro. Per orientation of the photo it kind of has the top curvature of the Nagoya and the bottom lines of a Kokura. I get these photos off Ebay when I know something is fake and keep them for reference.


NAGOYA and KOKURA DRAGS
http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9550&d=1191779619


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FAKE DRAG

http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9552&d=1191779673

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Reply author: MP-43
Replied on: 02/27/2006 1:29:18 PM
Message:
Thanks for the great info, Brad; always exciting to learn something new. Let me know if you want any hi-res shots for your collection.
Todd


Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 02/28/2006 01:05:34 AM
Message:
Brad,if you haven't already,do a search on NCO Sword for sale,or something to that effect on the Japanese trader board here.It's the one I sold Patrik in Sveden last year.I took some hgh res pics of it with the orig'leather tassel,and it too had only the Nag inspector(the two flags on top each other)on the fuchi.Brass guard style.I thought that one was unusual too,also in about same shape as MP's.Don't look at the $500 price,that's embarassing nowdays,the tassel fetches that much! Scott

Reply author: BradB
Replied on: 02/28/2006 05:27:47 AM
Message:
Shoot, I'd have paid you more than that! (smile). Searched for your sale (to make me feel even more like I really missed something) and couldn't pull it up.


Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 03/01/2006 06:17:13 AM
Message:
Hey Brad,click on page 22 of the Japanese Trader board and scan down 1/2 way to "WTB-NCO Sword"by Patrik.I posted some killer digi photos of that Nag sword+tassel.See if you can post the link(i dunno how)here so folks can compare the real one with this faker.One big thing I noticed is the plain coined edge of the seppa washers,the real one is scalloped and much more intricate.Scott

 
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