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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Model 66 questions
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Topic URL: http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=134663
Printed on: 10/03/2007


Topic:



Topic author: kampfy
Subject: Model 66 questions
Posted on: 11/19/2005 11:45:56 AM
Message:

What is the going rate for one of these rifles, and how hard is the ammunition (8X52r) to come by?


Replies:

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 11/20/2005 4:56:13 PM
Message:
There are too few in this country to even hazard an educated guess. Most were exported from Thailand to Canada and Australia with a few going to Europe. A very few have trickeled down from Canada. Most are in poor condition after years of service in Thailand's harsh climate. Two prototypes and one Vet bring back from Thailand (who thought it was a Type 38!) are the only ones in good condition. The two prottypes are presumed to have been removed from the reference collection of the Tokyo arsenal.

Frank

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/20/2005 7:57:29 PM
Message:
I sold the last one I had at Tulsa for $400, it had a 38 bolt and the condition made "NRA Wretched" look good. Ammunition is available as reloads. Riceone can possibly fill you in on brass/powder and bullets.

Reply author: Longshot02
Replied on: 11/20/2005 8:52:42 PM
Message:
Are we talking about regular siamese type 66 mauser rifles or something special?
http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9153&stc=1&d=1191698184
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Reply author: paul s
Replied on: 11/21/2005 08:16:04 AM
Message:
WTH? I just sold one at auction for $135.00!

Reply author: gwsiii
Replied on: 11/21/2005 09:43:06 AM
Message:
The Mauser copy is considered the Type 46. The Arisaka copy is considered the Type 66. Two totally different critters.

Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 11/21/2005 10:08:41 AM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by gwsiii
The Mauser copy is considered the Type 46. The Arisaka copy is considered the Type 66. Two totally different critters.
I'll try and post some pix tonite, unless Frank or Doss want to do so.

C/

Reply author: gwsiii
Replied on: 11/21/2005 10:13:19 AM
Message:
Doss post pictures? I've tried that, it is most akin to trying to teach a pig to sing, don't try it at home, It's virtually impossible, and annoys the hell out of the pig!

Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 11/21/2005 10:20:50 AM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by gwsiii
Doss post pictures? I've tried that, it is most akin to trying to teach a pig to sing, don't try it at home, It's virtually impossible, and annoys the hell out of the pig!
Trey,

Which would be more difficult: getting Doss to post photos or getting Bobby to buy and use a computer?

C/

Reply author: gwsiii
Replied on: 11/21/2005 10:46:03 AM
Message:
That is an interesting question, I think I'll stick with trying to teach a pig to sing rather than go any further with either of them.

Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 11/21/2005 10:51:58 AM
Message:
Guess I don't have any room to criticize, seeing how long it took me to finally buy a digital camera. Went through a lot of bad luck before I finally found one that was simple enough for me to operate.

C/

Reply author: rcb
Replied on: 11/21/2005 12:11:12 PM
Message:
The only loading data I have is for a case formed from 45/70 brass loaded with 170 gr. Hornady bullet ahead of 44 gr. of 3031. I have all the components for a T66 except the receiver. Any one know how I might come by one. The bore of the barrel looks new.

Am I correct that the T66 shoots the 8x52R and the Siamese Mauser that has been modified does too or is it the one not modified?? rcb

Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 11/22/2005 03:17:16 AM
Message:
FYI,(for yalls info) there's a good synopsis on Thai rifles w/pics of the 66 and 46 in the latest Shotgun News Treasury edition.Was at the Books a Million yesterday,has a gold cover and a CETME rifle across the front.What's wierd,i seem to have,stuck in a barrel of parts,a minty stock/h'guard for the '66,has a wierd little trap door that slides parallel out from under the butt plate.I can't for the life of me remember HOW I got that stock.I'd like to see pics on here if possible to confirm this,as I didn't bring the Sht'gun news home with me. Scott.

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 11/22/2005 11:24:35 AM
Message:
I have not seen the Shotgun News Treasury Edition you noted, but the earlier Shotgun News article on the Siamese Mauser was full of basic errors. Ignore that source.

As noted above, the Siamese Mauser was re-designated the Type 46 when the nomenclature system in Thailand changed in 1913. The Type 66 is an entirely different rifle that is a basic Arisaka, but origianlly chambered for the Siamese Type 66 cartridge. This is the 8x52R cartridge. Many Siamese Mausers were rechambered for this later version of the 8mm Siamese cartridge and this has caused the confusion that persists today.

I will attach some basic photos of the Type 66 later today as I need to modify them to appear here.

Frank

Reply author: rcb
Replied on: 11/22/2005 12:17:10 PM
Message:
I have three Siamese T46 rifles, one is original and the other two have had the rear sight re-calaberated, they shoot 8x52R. What does the original one shoot.

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 11/22/2005 4:49:55 PM
Message:
Dear RCB & others;

The original fires the Type 45 Siamese 8mm cartridge that is 8x50R.

Let me see if I can attach the T-66 photos now.

Frank




http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9154&stc=1&d=1191698184
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Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 11/22/2005 4:57:38 PM
Message:

Thanks for posting the photos Frank. I was having trouble getting around to locating mine.

C/

Reply author: Don Schlickman
Replied on: 11/22/2005 7:20:13 PM
Message:
Here are pictures of my two T-66's. The top one is a prototype, unnumbered rifle, unfortunatly the crest has been ground. The other is a standard production T-66. The over all dimensions are slightly larger than a T-38 because of the larger caliber round used in them. The rear sight is similar to the T-46 rifle. The front and rear barrel bands are secured by screws instead of the inletted spring as used on the T-38 rifles. The cleaning rod is larger in dia. and is shaped differently than the T 38 rod and is secured by threads instead of with the spring type locking device as the T-38 uses. The standard production rifle has what appears to be a British broad arrow painted on the butt stock. I believe it came out of Canada. Using the number translation from Frank and Rogers book on the T-46 rifle the serial mumber of the rifle is 4782. All the parts are numbered in Siamese as is the dust cover.




Reply author: rcb
Replied on: 11/22/2005 9:50:29 PM
Message:
Another question about ammo. Is the 8x50R used in the early Siamese Mauser the same 8x50R that was used in the Hungarian M95. I'm trying to figure out what dies I need. rcb.

Reply author: szeigler
Replied on: 11/22/2005 10:57:22 PM
Message:
All,

These are some photos of my Type 66. It is basically a Type 38 on steriods. From what I can read, none of the parts match. The Dustcover is Siamese marked. It also features a fluted firing pin. I've also added the Type 66 Bayonet (correct me if I've got the nomenclature wrong) that goes with the rifle(s).

I've promised Frank photos and a datasheet for 6 months. Maybe this is the weekend....

Roy, use 7.62 x 54R brass and 8mm Lebel dies - fire form cases and have fun. It's pretty easy. I'll send you some info I got from Frank.

http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9155&stc=1&d=1191698184

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Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 11/25/2005 5:18:10 PM
Message:
Dear Rcb;

The 8mm Siamese Type 45 (8x50R), fired in the Type 46 Siamese Mauser, in its original form is similar, but NOT the identicle to, several cartridges of the period, including the 8mm Mannlichter (sp?) nor the 8mm Hungarian, even thought the standard metric system seems to indicate the same cartridge case. The shoulder heights are VERY different. This is one of the few instances when the universal metric cartridge case measurement ID system fails.

Dear Shannon;

Your designation of the bayonet is CORRECT! Congrats. Few people get that correct!!!!!!!!!! The bayonet has the same designation as the rifle. Bayonets were originally made by the Japanese, but some replacements were made in Siam/Thailand.

Frank



Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 11/26/2005 09:08:48 AM
Message:
I was told the 8X50R Siamese round was a smokeless powder version of the 8mm Type 22 round. I have never taken measurements from the 2 rounds but have assumed the 8X50R to be a "shortened" version of the T22 round. That makes sense. Has anyone taken the measurements? I can't find my T22 round to confirm this.

Reply author: rcb
Replied on: 11/26/2005 4:38:12 PM
Message:
The first cartridge on the left is an 8x50R for the early T46 Siamese Mauser. The second cartridge is an 8x52R for the later T46 and the T66. Third cartridge is an 8x56R for the M95 Steyr.


Per instructions of Francis Allan I made the first case (8x50R) using a Norma 7.62x54 case and an 8mm Lebel sizing die. I fire formed it and then neck sized and reloaded it. Best I can measure the Base dia is .485", Shoulder dia. .460, length to shoulder 1.528", shoulder length .142". As stated by Mr. Allen there is no other cartridge just like it that I can find. I have "The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions" by Hohn J Donnelly and there are cartridges close but will not work.

Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 11/26/2005 9:01:10 PM
Message:
rcb, does your handloader manual show the Type 22 Murata round? Maybe one of these nights I can search out my material on these two rounds. My curiosity is up. I was told base dia, rim dia, and taper is same between the two cartridges. However, case was shortened to create the Siamese round since it was smokeless powder.

Reply author: rcb
Replied on: 11/26/2005 9:19:52 PM
Message:
Dunnelly show the 8x53R Murata (is that the T22) as having a base (head)dia of .492", shoulder dia. .458", length to shoulder 1.572", case length 2.06" and shoulder length .128." Not the same but about the closest of about seven 8mm cartridges around 50 mm long.

Reply author: dave nh
Replied on: 11/26/2005 10:05:50 PM
Message:
hello ,im new to the forum but have been collecting japanese sense the early 90s,i see in szeiglers post he posted a bayonet for the siamese rifle .his has the hook all the ones ive seen do not.I did see one at a local flea market today and i think it matched that one.it has the siamese writing on the flat of the blade thats all i can remmeber i only looked at it quick.whats to going price for something like that?

Dave

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 11/28/2005 7:35:50 PM
Message:
Dear Dave nh;

The Type 46 Siamese Mauser accepts the Type 46 bayonet that is typically Mauser in design and does not have a "hook".

The Type 66 Siamese Long Rifle accepts ONLY the Type 66 bayonet pictured here. It is similar to the Japanese Type 30 bayonet, but has a centered point and shorter length. For years it was miss-identified as the Type 51 (long boring story!).

Frank

Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 12/02/2005 8:50:59 PM
Message:
I don't think now that I have the Type 22 Murata round. I searched and searched tonight but did find a clip of Siamese 8 X 50 rimmed rounds. The base mics .487, and rim diameter is .550 if somebody has a T22 round to compare to. A cartridge collector sent me gobs of info on these rounds back in the early '80's, and like so much of my material, it's in the attic. I'll search it out one of these days. I need to go back over that story again and, 'til something better comes along, will stand by my story that the Siamese round is a smokeless powder version of the Type 22 round.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 12/02/2005 10:04:56 PM
Message:
I have a couple at home so will check dimensions and report tomorrow.
Will attach a photo to show how they look.

http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9160&stc=1&d=1191698184

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Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 12/03/2005 09:11:55 AM
Message:
Thanks, Edokko. We had the same questions about the steel bulleted 7.7 rounds, and by sticking with it did ferret out the answers. Maybe after Xmas I can dig through my stored material in the attic and find additional info. If you get an opportunity, can you post a photo of the Thai round beside the Murata round?

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 12/03/2005 11:59:38 PM
Message:
Hello RCB and Fred,

Here are some of the dimensional info on the T-22 8mm rounds I have. It will be two data from two rounds.

Rim dia : 0.556 in / 0.559 in
Base dia : 0.486 in / 0.491 in
Shoulder dia : 0.434 in / 0.438 in
Length to shoulder : 1.618 in / 1.618 in
Cartridge length : 2.076 in / 2.082 in

Unfortunately I do not have any Siamese rounds to photo compare with.

P.S. : Flew back today from the Phoenix show. Last night was an absolute blast at the Banzai get-together. One of the best people around !!

Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 12/04/2005 07:55:12 AM
Message:
Thanks, Edokko. The rim and base diameters are the same. That's where you start in building a case. I would assume the case taper is similar also. That would have been the easiest path for the Japanese designers to follow, especially at that early period in Japanese arsenal development, in working out a round to propose to the Siamese. Incidentally, recently, I picked up a near mint T46 Siamese serialized in the 40,000 range. My data's not handy now or would quote exact number. Got my wife hollaring at me that we're gonna be late for church so will search later.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 12/04/2005 1:53:47 PM
Message:
Fred, you're welcome.

Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 12/07/2005 2:24:17 PM
Message:

JB-276 is shown as a Japanese T-30 bayonet with Siamese numbering in various locations. I don't have my copy of JB handy, but does anyone know which rifle(s) were intended for use with this bayonet (JB-276)?

C/

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/07/2005 7:48:00 PM
Message:
Dear Seinen;

The basic Japanese Type 30 bayonet fits the Type 47 Siamese Mauser carbine and the Thai Type 83 Long Rifle (Japanese Type 38s obtained by Thailand in a barter agreement with the Japanese in 1939/1940 - all from the Kokura 25th Series or from the Nagoya 27th Series).

The re-numbering was probably done during their first re-finishing in Thai arsenals/workshops.

Jerry Price has a nice booklet on this entire subject.

Frank


Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/07/2005 7:56:19 PM
Message:
Dear Seinen;

I should point out that I think that Larry was referring to the Type 30 bayonet in Thai service as JB 276 and unique bayonet for the Type 66 rifle, which we now recognize as the Type 66 bayonet with the abbreviated length, centered point and Mauser-style frog stud on the scabbard is the JB 277. At the time of the publication of Japanese Bayonets this was thought to be the Type 51 bayonet, but we now know that that is incorrect.

Have I confused you enough yet??????

Frank


Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 12/08/2005 09:07:50 AM
Message:

Frank,

Nope, no confusion at all. Thanks for the enlightening information. I'm planning to do a display at one of the upcoming Springfield (MA) shows and want to ensure that my information correct.

C/


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