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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here are a few pictures for your entertainment

Mle 1886 early production, notice the riveted blade and the locking lug covering only 1/3 of the tenon's surface.

Mle 1886 late production, screwed in blade, larger locking lug.

Mle 1886M15

Mle 1886M15 private industry production, brass handle

Mle 1886M15 Remington contract, plus 2 detail of the Remington handle junction vs. "normal" profile, note the "pinker" brass on the Remington, as well as the almost straight junction.

Cheers,

JH
 

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Remington Bayonets

Guys: Unless I am remembering wrong, the Remington Bayonet was made of alloy, not bronze. All I have seen had the handle made of this aluminum alloy, with the spanner nut.

I have never seen a bayonet that I could know for sure was Remington otherwise....

The Remingtons have no marks on them at all, not even a letter, and the scabbard is the same, totally un-marked..

Also: The locking lug was not lengthened, the slot in the collar was....simple expedient to provide more engagement of the locking tenon...

Dale
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Dale:

I'll have to dig out through my references, but I do recall that one to be documented as a Remington variant. Indeed, there is not a single proofmark or stamp on that one. The private contract one had the letter C&P stamped on the base of the blade (you can see it on the picture from my previous post). I have another one, shortened i.e. the so-called "cycliste" also a private-contract made one and it has two letters on the base of the blade. I forgot to grab the list of codes while at the cottage, I will try to remember this upcoming week-end.

Cheers,

Jan
 

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I would be intrested in that code listing mon ami to help me get more information on an article I am working on these bayonets, I found a few of them but always interested in more of them. I will also edit this later to include the locking lug differences, I never paid attention to this before you brought it up, it is quite different, I learn something new all the time.


Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 and Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915

The standard Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 was developed starting in January of 1886 for the new revolutionary smokeless powder rifle the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 "Lebel" which would be the first French rifle to have the bayonet mounted directly underneath the barrel. These bayonets are 640mm (25.20) in overall length with a straight, bright steel 520mm (20.47) long 4-edge cruciform blade, 14mm (.55) diameter muzzle ring, metal grip, hooked quillion, steel crossguard with a rounded checkered press-catch locking mechanism which weighed 400 grams (14.1 Oz.). The scabbards called fourreau for these were made of blued steel, tubular in shape with a rounded tip and weighed 200 grams (7.05 Oz.). The first bayonets had a false steel endcap on the back of the handle which did not allow for the bayonet to be easily disassembled, in August of 1890 these were eliminated and a rounded nut with 2 small square holes was used so that the bayonet could be disassembled by the regimental armorer or regional support unit for parts replacement. There was some Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 that were shortened to a blade length of 340mm (13.39) prior to the Great War for Troupes Cyclistes (Bicycle Troops).

The standard bayonet, the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 was modified for “trench” warfare starting in January of 1915 with the complete removal of the quillion during the manufacturing process, not cut-off as has been rumored, and simplifying the bayonet latch release with a semi-rounded type, these new bayonets were to be called Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915. Sometime very late in WWI or during the 1920's or 30's some of the bayonets blades and cross-guards were blued.

Grips for these bayonets were made in many different metals, prior to the war these were made in German nickel silver (bronze de nickel) or what is referred to as maillechort. On the 25th of October of 1914 German nickel silver was substituted with brass (laiton) or aluminum bronze (bronze d'aluminium) normally called tambak or jaune (yellow) and in July of 1917 steel (acier) or iron (fer) substituted all previous metals.

These bayonets were called "Rosalie" by the French Poilus in honor of the Virgin of the Southern French town of Bayonne where supposedly bayonets were first used in 1655. The legend is that during the mid-17th century irregular military conflicts of rural France, the peasants of the Southern French town of Bayonne, who were Basques, having run out of powder and shot, rammed their long-bladed hunting knives into the muzzles of their muskets to fashion impromptu spears and, by necessity, created the Baïonnette.

In 1915 a steel wire breaker attachment was made for the bayonet which was slipped on to the blade of the bayonet that could cut barbed wire using the bullet of the rifle as it was fired. This device was called coupe barbelé système "FILLOUX" which was designed by Artillerie Lieutenant-Colonel L.J.F. Filloux who worked at Atelier de Construction de Bourges. These were marked with the month, the last two digits of the year and a circled capital letter B which showed these were made by Atelier de Construction de Bourges.

Both type of French made Épée-Baïonnettes and scabbards were marked with the serial number and either a script or block letter prefix which showed what Manufacture Nationale d'Armes made the bayonet. These will be marked on the left side of the quillon on the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886, on the bottom of the cross-guard of the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 and on the frog strap bale of the scabbards.
1). Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) ... A,B,C,D,E
2). Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne (MAS) … F,G,H,J,K,L,M,N,P,Q
3). Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Tulle (MAT) ... R,S,T,U,V
4). Letter code X was used for instruction purposes only

The bayonets were also marked with a small quality control and the mark of acceptance into military service called Contrôleur Poinçons (controllers stamps) which was stamped on the bottom or side of blade and just above the frog strap bale on the scabbard. There were three different type of acceptance marks used: Directeur de Manufacture (Armory Director), Contrôleur Généraux Principaux (Principal Arms Inspector) and Contrôleur de 1ème, 2ème y 3 ème Classe (1st, 2nd and 3rd Class Controllers). Both the Directeur de Manufacture and Contrôleur Généraux Principaux marks will be found with a letter within a circle and Contrôleur de 1ème, 2ème y 3 ème Classe will be found with a letter within a shield. Other letters and numbers are marked at various places on the bayonet in which some of these are the private companies that made parts for these during the war and others are most likely are some sort of inspectors markings, more research is needed into this. There are some bayonets that are marked with what appears to be naval anchors which meant that these were issued to the French Colonial Forces called Troupes Coloniales, which were military forces that garrisoned and were largely recruited from the vast French Colonial Empire.

Some bayonet parts were made by private companies during the Great War such as:
1). L. Delage & Cie which made grips and were marked with code: LC on the grip
2). M. Guinard which made the springs for the rotating collar latch
3). Établissement Malicet & Blin which made cross-guards and were marked with code: M
4). Société des Anciens Établissements Panhard & Levassor which made the rotating collar latch and were marked with code: PL on the part
5). Société des Automobiles & Cycles Peugeot which made the blades, grip screw and scabbards and these will be marked with code: P on those parts
6). Automobiles Renault which made grip and were marked with code: R on the handle

During WWI Remington Arms Company which was based in Ilion, New York was contracted to make Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 for the French military, most of these bayonets will not have any markings on them at all as very few of these were sent to France during the Great War. The grips on these bayonets were made of a type of German nickel silver which had a slightly less pronounced contoured grip closer to the cross-guard.

After WWI both the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 and Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 blades were shortened to a blade length of anywhere from 265mm to 400mm, these were to be called Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 Raccourci 1935. These were mostly used on the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 Raccourci 1935, Mousqueton de Cavalerie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 Raccourci 1935 and Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1934.
Many of the other countries during the Great War or after such as Belguim, Bulgaria, Finland, Greece, Italy, Serbia, Russia who had been sold or used various French rifles also used these bayonets. After WWI ended the newly created nation of Poland was sold, by the French, many of both type of these bayonets which were used during the Polish-Soviet War (1919-1921) and later during the Polish Invasion of 1939. These bayonets were called Bagnetowy Wzor 1886/93 and were usually marked at the back of the pommel with following markings: Wz86/91 or Wz86/93. Germany also used many of these from captured stocks or from enemy prisoners of war during both World Wars, these bayonets are usually marked with the regimental unit which used them on the side or inside the top groove of the grip.
In all of the photographic evidence seen by myself and other French Firearms Collectors the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 was only really used on the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 "Lebel" and the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 was used on both the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 and Fusil de Infanterie Modèle Modifié 1916.

Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886
L’épée-baïonnette se divise en trois parties principales: la lame, la monture et le forreau.
1. Dans la lame on distingue: La lame quadrangulaire proprement dite; le talon, les quarte arêtes, les quatre gouttières, la pointe.
La soie prolongée dans toute la longueur de la poignée, filetée à son extrémité et maintenue dans la tête de la poignée par un ecrou.
2. La monture comprend: La poignée, en bronze de nickel; la tête, qui pénètre dans le logement de l'embouchoir, le corps, la rainure pour le grand tenon; l'emplacement de la virole; le tenon qui pénètre dans le collet de la croisière; les trous pour la vis de poignée; l'evidement intérieur; l'ecrou.
La vis de poignée, qui assure l'assemblage de la poignée et de la soie, et dont la tête sert à limiter les mouvements du poussoir.
La croisière, en acier; le corps, le quillon, la douille, les deux fentes de la douille, l'une pour guidon, l'autre pour le petit tenon; le trou de la soie; le collet qui reçoit le tenon de la poignée; les trous du rivet de croisière, le logement du poussoir et son ressort.
La virole, en acier, qui sert à fixer la baïonnette au canon. Il comprend: le corps; le poussoir quadrillé; le logement du ressort de poussoir; l'échancrure pour la tête de la vis de poignée; le taquet et son plan incliné.
Le ressort à boudin de poussoir.
3. Le fourreau est en acier bronzé; Il comprend: Le corps de fourreau, l'entrée, le trou du rivet de cuvette;
Le bracelet-pontet, brasé sur le fourreau;
Le bouton, brasé sur le fourreau; le bouton proprement dit, la tige qui pénètre dans le fourreau, son évidement conique;
La cuvette; le corps, le trou du rivet, les quatre battes, pour maintenir l’épée-baïonnette dans le fourreau;
Le rivet de cuvette.

Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915
L’épée-baïonnette se divise en trois parties principales: la lame, la monture et le forreau.
1. Dans la lame on distingue: La lame quadrangulaire proprement dite; le talon, les quarte arêtes, les quatre gouttières, la pointe.
La soie prolongée dans toute la longueur de la poignée, filetée à son extrémité et maintenue dans la tête de la poignée par un ecrou.
2. La monture comprend: La poignée, en bronze de nickel ou en laiton; la tête, qui pénètre dans le logement de l'embouchoir, le corps, la rainure pour le grand tenon; l'emplacement de la virole; le tenon qui pénètre dans le collet de la croisière; les trous pour la vis de poignée; l'evidement intérieur; l'ecrou.
La vis de poignée, qui assure l'assemblage de la poignée et de la soie, et dont la tête sert à limiter les mouvements du poussoir.
La croisière, en acier; le corps, la douille, les deux fentes de la douille, l'une pour guidon, l'autre pour le petit tenon; le trou de la soie; le collet qui reçoit le tenon de la poignée; les trous du rivet de croisière, le logement du poussoir et son ressort.
La virole, en acier, qui sert à fixer la baïonnette au canon. Il comprend: le corps; le poussoir quadrillé; le logement du ressort de poussoir; l'échancrure pour la tête de la vis de poignée; le taquet et son plan incliné.
Le ressort à boudin de poussoir.
3. Le fourreau est en acier bronzé; Il comprend: Le corps de fourreau, l'entrée, le trou du rivet de cuvette;
Le bracelet-pontet, brasé sur le fourreau;
Le bouton, brasé sur le fourreau; le bouton proprement dit, la tige qui pénètre dans le fourreau, son évidement conique;
La cuvette; le corps, le trou du rivet, les quatre battes, pour maintenir l’épée-baïonnette dans le fourreau;
Le rivet de cuvette.
Les baïonnettes fabriquées pendant la guerre sont, pour la plupart dépourvues de quillon.
 

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Both of y'all missed something....

Patrick and Mezigot: You have missed something, the Lebel pattern shortened for the Mle 1886-R35......This one has a pin added to the crossguard, internally, that guides the latch spring and prevents binding of the locking latch on the bayonets that have had the notch lengthened to provide more engagement of the tenon on the barrel.....I have two of these, both shortened, and both have the lock modified for more engagement and both have the pin installed to guide the lock spring.....

Dale
 

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I have not ever had the need to take a bayonet apart yet and I do not own a Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 Raccourci 1935 one so I had no idea they modified it internally, I will add this to the above article. Can you get me some pictures of this modification Dale I would appreciate it.
Patrick
 

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Just to change the focus here a bit... But not much, as this is a derivative from the 1886 Lebel, as I understand it...

Does anyone here have a photo of a Daudeteau bayonet? ...The 6.5 mmm modified Mauser 71...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Very similar to the Mle 1890 bayonet, i.e. a 1886 blade with a Maillechort handle with a cut for the cleaning rod, and a locking mechanism identical to that of the Mle 1892... I'll try to dig out more information over the week-end.

Cheers,

JH
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Patrick and Mezigot: You have missed something, the Lebel pattern shortened for the Mle 1886-R35......This one has a pin added to the crossguard, internally, that guides the latch spring and prevents binding of the locking latch on the bayonets that have had the notch lengthened to provide more engagement of the tenon on the barrel.....I have two of these, both shortened, and both have the lock modified for more engagement and both have the pin installed to guide the lock spring.....

Dale
Dale,

I just did not have one to illustrate. Reportedly the real ones have a blade length of exactly 400 mm, and it's blackened (i.e. not in the white as all the other 1886 variants). Anything else is a "cycliste" or a forgery...

Cheers,

Jan

PS: More information to come once I get my hands back on the article that has been eluding me for a while. If if find it, after positive ID, I may have a real rarity to show you guys...
 

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These were used for the Uruguayan "Dovitis" Infanteriegewehre M.1871 Mauser as well as the "experimental" French Fusil Daudeteau Modele B both in 6,5x53,5SRmm called Cartouche No. 12.
The biggest differences in this bayonet was the diameter of the muzzle ring and of la tête (part that goes into the front barrel band) and it had a featured a groove that extends down the left side of the bayonet grip to allow clearance for the brass-tipped clearing rod.



Here is the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890 and 1902 variant
The main difference in these was that locking mechanism was located in the pommel which connected with the bayonet bar to attach the bayonet to the weapon. The 1890 version had a 520mm (20.47) long 4-edge cruciform blade and in 1902 the bayonet was found to be too long for these smaller stature soldiers of the Indochinois troops and was shortened in 1912 from 520mm (20.4 inch) to 420mm (16.5 inch) to better accommodate them. Both of these had a 13mm diameter muzzle ring compared to the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 14mm (.55) diameter muzzle ring.

 

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Doody-Toe Bayonet

Same as Mle 1886, relocated and reduced circle in the back, channel cut for clearing rod. Does not have a latch at the rear like the Mle 90....Has a tenon on the bottom of the barrel I am going to make one for my Dauteteau out of an early Mle 1886....

Patrick I will get the modified Lebel out of the hoard tonite and make pix for the board...This is the only real un-mentioned mod that I know of....

Dale
 

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Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890, 1902 and 1907

These bayonets also featured a long, straight, bright steel 520mm long 4-edge cruciform blade and a hooked quillion. The main difference in these was that locking mechanism was located in the pommel which connected with the bayonet bar to attach the bayonet to the weapon.

1890 … These were to be used for the Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890, these featured a groove that extends down the left side of the bayonet grip to allow clearance for the brass-tipped clearing rod. All grips were made of German nickel silver (bronze de nickel) or what is referred to as maillechort. These have a 13mm diameter muzzle ring.
1902 … These were to be used for the Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902, these featured a groove that extends down the left side of the bayonet grip to allow clearance for the brass-tipped clearing rod. The bayonet was found to be too long for these smaller stature soldiers and was shortened in 1912 from 520mm (20.4 inch) to 420mm (16.5 inch) to better accommodate them. All grips were made of German nickel silver (bronze de nickel) or what is referred to as maillechort. These have a 13mm diameter muzzle ring.
1907 … These were to be used for the Fusil de Tirailleur Sénégalais "Colonial" Modèle 1907, these did not have the groove that extended down the the left side of the bayonet grip. All grips were made of German nickel silver (bronze de nickel) or what is referred to as maillechort. These have a 14mm diameter muzzle ring.

I own a 1902 in the picture in previous post and here, seen Dale's 1890 and only have seen a 1907 in pictures, these are super hard to find as is the rifles themselves.

Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902
 

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Super pix of the Dovitis Daudeteau bayos!!!

Thanks for this information and education.

If anyone stumbles across a cache of these, I need one for my Dovitis!!!

Thanks Mezigot, Dale, and 1886Lebel for the wonderful info...

Be safe all...
 

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Mle 1886 R 35 Bayonet

Patrick et Mezigot; Here are the shots of the bayonet with the guide added....

Old Smithy had his Dauteteau bayonet in backwards ..... should have the quillion on the other side....where the leather is cut for it.

Dale
 

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Dale,
Ok I see it now where they did the modification, thanks for the pictures.

TnDoc,
Last Épée-Baïonnette for the Daudeteau I saw for sale sold for over $800 which was sold by Stephan Juan of AntiqueFirearms.com.
Patrick
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Dale,

Thanks for the picture. Actually, if memory serves, that modification was incorporated in the updated construction tables, except that it is not showing up on the other side. I had a nice article detailing all the variants, etc. but God know where my father hid it after "re-organizing" the booksheves. I may have it in Chatellerault's book. If I can get my hands on the article, that would answer the questions of the modification, the Remington "salmon" brass, etc. better than my memory can.

I just found a hobby for the (long) week-end.

Cheers,

Jan
 

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Remington Bayonets

Guys: I neglected to mention, that if one was indusrious enough, it is possible to change the handle on a Rem bayonet....All one needs is a good spanner to remove the nut, and a good padded vise and the appropriate files to make the fit exact....

Dale
 

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TnDoc,
Last Épée-Baïonnette for the Daudeteau I saw for sale sold for over $800 which was sold by Stephan Juan of AntiqueFirearms.com.
Patrick


Thanks, Patrick... Looks like that will not be possible then! I have known Stephan for years and have many fine pieces due to his efforts. I have always found him to be fair and his items conservatively described... My Daudeteau came from him (but was half the price of the bayo!) and is an excellent rifle...

Maybe one will turn up at a gun show one day!

Thanks again for all the info!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
OK guys, put my act together and dug out some reference material. To keep things short and sweet, I'll use the following abbreviations: ABC = Atlas de la baionnette de collection, K = Keisling (sp? don't have that one) and GA = Gazette des Armes (special baionnettes) followed by the number of the specific record.

Those interested in the Daudeteau bayonets: ABC 998, K 413, GA 413

Variants around the Mle 1886 in original length ABC 982-997

More specifically:

Remington 1886-15: Maillechort + brass handles, no marking, shape of the handle near the locking ring (virole) ABC 992. "salmon colored brass", shape of the handle, no markings, GA No 152, p.25. The bayonet in my earlier picture is definitely a Remingon-made one.

Mle 1886-15 R35: 40 cm blade, all metal is "bronzee", i.e. blued, made only from pure Mle 1886-15, i.e. not from those with a shortened quillon ABC 523. 40 cm blade, ball shapened end of scabbard 12,7 mm diameter instread of original 11 mm. No mention of finish but appears to have been blued in the past from illustrations GA No 161, p.57 Therefore anything non-40 cm blade is NOT an R35. There is a DM from 1930 ordering the shortening of blades to 30 cm specifically for the use with (semi)-automatic rifles (most probably the FA-18) That was cancelled in 1933.

Mle 1886-15 private contracts: Blades marked with (not exhaustive list) P, SG, S.C, C&P, CF. Handle with intertwined B and M Ref. ABC988.

General evolution article on the Mle 1886 bayonet by Pierre Renoux GA No 152 p.22:

June 15th 1888: Elimination of the axis guiding the spring of the locking ring, spring lengthened from 6 to 7 spires. (Dale, I apologize, I got it all reverted in my previous message). BTW the bayonet in the picture of the early Mle 1886 posted has the post, is a G-series and bears the Navy anchor on the guard.

1890 lenghtened "soie" (part of the blade inside the handle) fixed to the handle by means of a screw cap at the pommed of the bayonet.

1893 widened locking lug (taquet de virole), notch on the locking ring (echancrure de virole) enlarged, thickness of the press button slighly diminished to keep the protusion constant despite the longer travel

October 1914, brass handles authorized

July 1917, grey cast iron (fonte grise) handles authorized mainly beause of easier castability to help the private industry (process tested at Chatellerault in March).

That's all for now.

Cheers,

JH
 
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