Carl Gustaf Rolling Block in 10,15x61R Jarmann
Further postings have brought more valuable information; all pictures thanks to Arilar.
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arilar
Posted - 12/17/2006 : 2:33:51 PM
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Arrived today. Can anyone tell me when they were produced, why and how many? Giving you all pics in a couple of days.
arilar
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 4:48:15 PM
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So....a CG Remington in caliber 10,15x61R Jarmann. Why, when and in what number were they produced?
Regards,
ARILAR
Dutchman
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 5:14:06 PM
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Other than the caliber anomaly, I can see several obvious differences to the later 12,7mm rifles.
1- shorter barrel & cleaning rod.
2- receiver profile in barrel area (could be wrong on this).
3- larger pivot pins.
4- hammer profile different than later models.
I'm not sure this isn't just a case of a Jarmann barrel being fitted to a rolling block. At any rate I think its the first 1867 dated Carl Gustaf receiver I've seen.
arilar
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 03:45:02 AM
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Hi Dutchman,
Yes you are right. Its a Jarmann barrel fitted to a rolling block. They are pretty rare. Maybe 100-200 made?? Havent found so much written about them yet. On this one is the 1879 back-sight (restamped). In front you see sight adjustable in side and the typical 1867 ramrod-end. Swivel attached to trigger-guard as on m/1867. All parts matching serialnumber. On triggerguard mark T.A.T. Any suggestions what it means? Buttplate marked also with numbers.
The 10,15 mm barrel was issued 1880 but not descided at that point what rifle to be used on. The Swedish Repeter-rifle Jarmann 10,15 mm was never taken and only close to 1500 made.
I think that the Remington 10,15 was made after 1880 then. Karl-Egil Hanevik says in his wonderful book "Norske militaergevaer etter 1867" that, "...instead was it at first a small number of older Remingtonrifles changed to 10,15 mm caliber" .My translation and it is in the part when the 1883 swedish Jarmann was not choosen 1885. 1889 came the 8 mm remington so I suspect somewhere between 1885-88 is the year?
The barrel is also marked. "JG" is the "Besiktningsrustmästare" in this case Johan Granberg active from ca. 1872 and known to been checking jarmann-rifles in Stockholm 1879. Even more interesting is the mark "JB" belonging to Johan Brandt, "Besiktningsofficer" that started in Carl Gustafs Stad june 1886. That narrows the period to 1886-88?
Any inputs?
Regards,
ARILAR
Dutchman
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 3:53:07 PM
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This is so specialized as to be out of my area of general knowledge but I have a couple thoughts... ok maybe only one thought
I would hesitate to depend upon the initials stamped in the barrel to determine the date of assembly. All those initials indicate are dates of inspection. We do not know if the two go together, inspection and assembly.
I suspect Anders may be the person to contact as he may know an advanced collector who can shed light on this rifle.
My interest is in the receiver itself being a first year production Carl Gustaf. The HVA receivers have their own little differences as well but as with Swedish Mausers my interests lie with Carl Gustaf firearms.
Its a very nice rifle. Looks as though someone deliberately polished off what case hardening color was there on the receiver.... ?? It also looks to have had an abusive owner who could not accurately hit the breechblock pivot pin on the right side of the receiver to remove it.
Dutchman
arilar
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 09:00:25 AM
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Yes, hard to find info. Phoned a couple collectors that are "semi"-advcanced with Remingtons. Some has owned or handled a rifle as this and can describe mine by phone! Now I rather believe maybe 300 were made? Based upon comparing other rifles "just 100 made" or "just 200 made". Maybe or maybe not mine has had case-hardening on receiver. Beside the abuse close to pivot pin the rifle is in very good condition. Belive it was a "trial-rifle" of some kind.
Inspectors marks are interesting. The article "Stämplar på svenska arméns handeldvapen 1770-1870" (marks on Swedish handguns 1770-1870) by Roger Olsson in the book "Meddelande 41-42 Armémuseum 1980-82" is very good regarding marks. According to "1850 regulation on inspection"was the initials to the right by "Besiktningsrustmästaren" when the barrel was approved. The mark, initials to the left by the "Besiktningsofficer" when the total rifle was approved. That is way I have the theory that JB, the officers stamp, indicates production of the rifle 1886-1888.
Well, I will try to get hold on more collectors and really hopes Anders participates in this thread. Nevertheless, always a thrill when not all mysteries is cleared immediately!
Regards,
ARILAR
bonny
Estonia
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 12:31:57 PM
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Your Rolling Block rifle is pretty, congratulations on a nice find
From what I have read, I suppose Remington's Rolling Block rifles were the most successful design as far as single bullet breech loading military rifles are concerned. I understand that over 100 nations adopted this rifle since its introduction.
Could it be said that this design was more popular than the American trap door rifles or the British Henry Martini styled rifles?
Dutchman
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 7:40:12 PM
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Originally posted by bonny
Your Rolling Block rifle is pretty, congratulations on a nice find
From what I have read, I suppose Remington's Rolling Block rifles were the most successful design as far as single bullet breech loading military rifles are concerned. I understand that over 100 nations adopted this rifle since its introduction.
Could it be said that this design was more popular than the American trap door rifles or the British Henry Martini styled rifles?
Remington alone produced over 1,000,000 rifles. Add in the contract rifles built by Spain, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Belgium.....Egypt. I'm real sure there are more. Yes, far out produced the British Martini and the U.S. 1873 Springfield by a long shot.
Dutchman
arilar
Posted - 12/27/2006 : 7:30:15 PM
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New info from two collectors..."försöksmodell" trial-model 1884. Produced approx. 1000 rifles. Does this ring a bell for anybody? Will try to get this info confirmated. Rotta, isnt Jarmann 10,15 popular in Norway? Maybe you have some knowledge on this model? Seems it not that unusual.
Regards,
ARILAR
jaeger justnaes
Norway
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 06:44:21 AM
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Arilar, I've heard of two theories.
1. A trial rifle for testing the 10.15 cartridge prior to the approval of the Jarmann rifle.
2. A "Skolskjutningsgevär" to use the surplus 10.15 ammo after the M96 came along.
In any case your rifle is probably quite rare and in a excellent condition! Congratulations!
I have have a civil Norwegian RB and a tennstempelrifle chambered for that round. Guess it's due to the fact that it was a powerful and precise cartridge (used for competition and hunting) and it was plentiful after the M96 and Krag-Joergensen rifles took over.
arilar
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 3:31:49 PM
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Thanks Jaeger. Your suggestions seems as good as any. Havent got so many actually. So....what bulletmould? Dont wanna use paper-patched bullets though. (Well I have Öyvinds nice book but will wait with that system). Any big difference between RCBS and 4D dies? Brass from Bertram or other source?
rudybolla
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 5:07:03 PM
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I have owned one of these (posted pics here some time ago)and seen two more. I have heard that they were trials rifles. I once saw an M70-style cavalry carbine in 10.15 Jarmann!!! Must have packed a whallop and a half. Was told about a M85 garrison/artillery carbine in same chambering, so I think the Swedes were looking for a way to stave off having to buy all new rifles.
arilar
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 5:08:33 PM
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Originally posted by Dutchman
Other than the caliber anomaly, I can see several obvious differences to the later 12,7mm rifles.
1- shorter barrel & cleaning rod.
2- receiver profile in barrel area (could be wrong on this).
3- larger pivot pins.
4- hammer profile different than later models.
I'm not sure this isn't just a case of a Jarmann barrel being fitted to a rolling block. At any rate I think its the first 1867 dated Carl Gustaf receiver I've seen.
Hi Dutchman,
I am new to this modern rifles (after 25 years of ML-shooting) so I couldn't reply on your observations until today. A friend stopped by and showed his very nice CG Rem. m.64-68. His barrel was 2 centimeters longer (84 cm and míne 82). His cleaningrod was the official m.64-68 and mine is the m.67 where the round tip has been changed to a smaller "caliber" to fit 10,15mm.
Yes, on my 10,15mm is receiver area more round on a longer distance in barrel area compared to m.64-68 (as m.67 is supposed to be). Hammer on mine thinner, other small details on receiver "edges" and hammer differs. Also larger pivot pins on my m.67 (as it should be).
So... your observations was correct in EVERY detail. I am impressed. See also the earlier style of attachment for sling to triggerguard.
I had been told that this model has a fabric-bedding for the barrel in frontstock. This fabric usually collects moisture and therefore makes the barrel very rusty underneath even if the rest of the barrel looks perfect. In my case luckily just minor rust and perfect condition underneath and also inside the barrel.
Regards,
ARILAR
arilar
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 5:14:25 PM
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Originally posted by rudybolla
I have owned one of these (posted pics here some time ago)and seen two more. I have heard that they were trials rifles. I once saw an M70-style cavalry carbine in 10.15 Jarmann!!! Must have packed a whallop and a half. Was told about a M85 garrison/artillery carbine in same chambering, so I think the Swedes were looking for a way to stave off having to buy all new rifles.
Rudybolla,
Yes, someone mentioned the carbine-version of this 10,15 Rem trial-rifle. I was told the carbine model is extremely rare. Maybe just 100 made!!
Regards, ARILAR
rudybolla
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 5:32:55 PM
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Double Dang!! I knew I should have bought it!
arilar
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 5:41:29 PM
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Originally posted by rudybolla
Double Dang!! I knew I should have bought it!
Rudybolla,
Yes, someone mentioned the carbine-version of this 10,15 Rem trial-rifle. I was told the carbine model is extremely rare. Maybe just 100 made!!
Dont feel sorry! The advanced collector that told me about the carbine 10,15 Rem. also mentioned that this carbine was so odd, unusual or even ugly-looking that even rather experienced collectors often passed on it. You know, the "Bubba-theory-syndrom". Thanks for info about old threads. Just red them with interest.
Regards,
ARILAR
jaeger justnaes
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 12:31:48 PM
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Just to make the mess complete, there was also a "carbine version" of the 10,15 Jarmann, I can't remember the case length but I think it was 54mm.
rudybolla
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 3:29:23 PM
Originally posted by jaeger justnaes
Just to make the mess complete, there was also a "carbine version" of the 10,15 Jarmann, I can't remember the case length but I think it was 54mm.
That would at least "soften the blow"!
