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Discussion Starter #1
rudybolla
Posted - 03/04/2006 : 5:50:52 PM
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A couple of weeks ago there was a post about what was thought to be an M67/89 Cadet in 10.15x61R Jarmann. I replied that I had just bought the same rifle and was waiting for it to be delivered. Well, it is here and here is what I think it is based on information I have received. It is a very rare Swedish military rolling block trials rifle chambered in 10.15x61R Jarmann.

In the late 1870s, Sweden and Norway began trials to replace the aging M67 rolling block rifles in 12.7x42 rimfire. A number of rifle designs and cartridges were tested. The Jarmann cartridge was chosen, since it was one of the most efficient black powder cartridges ever developed, comparable to the 9.5mm Turkish Mauser (as per COTW).

This rifle is military inspected and matching and built on a first-generation M67 Husqvarna receiver (identified by the link and swivel sling swivel on front of trigger guard and a much sleeker hammer. Bore is excellent. Action is tight. Barrel retains 95%+ blue turning plumb. The receiver appears to have been tinned (unusual?) and the right side has some light pitting that does not detract from the overall appeal of the rifle. Wood is very good with the typical storage scuffs and dings.

Norway adopted the cartridge and Jarmann bolt action rifle in 1884. Sweden decided to convert their black powder rolling blocks to fire 8x58R Danish Krag smokeless in 1889, creating the M67/89 rifle. For collectors of Swedish military rolling blocks, this is a great addition. I bought it because I wanted to shoot something other than my usual 12.7x44R rifles (military and commercial sporters), but then I stumbled upon two great fullstock Husqvarna sporting rolling block rifles in 8x58R Sauer and .500/450 No 1 Express. So the Jarmann needs to go. Here are some pics.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rudybolla/200634174551_jarmann 007.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rudybolla/200634174619_jarmann 009.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rudybolla/200634174715_jarmann 004.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rudybolla/200634174741_jarmann 012.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rudybolla/20063417484_jarmann 010.jpg
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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Another m/1867-89 for Jarmann cartridge

And this is the previous thread which Rudybolla had mentioned above:

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fireexit1
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 09:17:41 AM
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I recently picked up a rolling block (school rifle) m/1867-89 - shorter barrel and stock, no bayonet lug.

It is chambered in 10.15 Jarmann - I can find no reference to this caliber being the original for this rifle - so I guess it was re-chambered at some time. Stock disk missing.

I also think that maybe it was re-chambered by the military as it has no "commercial markings" - I guess that they would have switched to this caliber when the Jarmann rifle came into service ?

unless anyone knows better ????

Chris


jorma
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 12:54:31 PM
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Try these adds:
http://hem.bredband.net/b102212/remington.html
http://www.mvs.chalmers.se/~m95perm_2/vapen/eldhandv/div/remington.en.html
I have a carbine chambered for 10mm jarman.



rudybolla
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 10:16:29 PM
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I am assuming that was on Michale D. Long's site? I was told that these were trial rifles, not school rifles. When Norway adopted the Jarmann, Sweden stuck with the M67/89 until adoption of the M96, or so I have been told. A couple of years ago I saw one on Antiqueguns.com that was a carbine in Jarmann. The guy who had this carbine said he had handled several oddball guns that were clearly produced by the factory for military trials. As fate would have it, I just bought a rifle built on a first generation M67 action, with the link and swivel sling attachment on front of TG. Seller had it listed as 12.7x44. What gives it away is the atypical breach configuration. That is why I snapped it up! Here are a couple of pics. It is in the mail as we, er, speak!

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rudybolla/2006214221246_L full.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rudybolla/2006214221321_aft.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rudybolla/2006214221338_middle.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rudybolla/2006214221353_forend.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rudybolla/200621422148_rec top.jpg
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rudybolla
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 10:24:01 PM
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Jorma:
I cannot get either of those links to come up. Any suggestions? Curious to find out more about this rifle. Thanks!


jorma
Finland
548 Posts
Posted - 02/15/2006 : 04:17:34 AM
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Hello rudybolla send me a PM so I can send copys of articles.
I have the same problem, can`t get anything out of those adds.
jorma


fireexit1
United Kingdom
Posted - 02/15/2006 : 05:47:04 AM
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Yes it was the one from my "supplier" Michael d long. Interesting - a trials rifle - well it looks good next to my M96 whatever it is !

not sure why a trials rifle would be made with shorter stock 'tho - any rationale behind this ?

I have worked out the links :
go to

http://www.mvs.chalmers.se/~m95perm_2
and navigate to the page

also the new : http://www.pettsons.net/singles.html

I am reading it now
many thanks

Chris
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Edited by - fireexit1 on 02/15/2006 05:58:17 AM


rudybolla
Posted - 02/15/2006 : 08:23:41 AM
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From Kieth Doyan's great www.militaryrifles.com page:

"The history of the Jarmann started May 1st 1877(?) in Stockholm, with a Swedish/Norwegian comittee meeting. In an effort to find and propose a suitable rifle for the Norwegian and Swedish armies, a number of rifles and carbines was tested and evaluated. Both single shot and repeaters. In 1880 a cartridge of 10.15 mm caliber was approved for use in infantry rifles. This caliber was used in different trial versions of the Jarmann designed rifles, both for single shot and repeaters. Testing of these rifles was conducted during the years 1877-1885. Norway adopted a repeater in 1882. It had an 8 round magazine. Also, one cartridge could be placed below the bolt (on the "feeder") and one in the chamber. The rifle was rejected by the Swedish army."

Seems that both rifles and carbines of a number of models in 10.15 Jarmann were tested. Kind of neat to get one of these, although I am principally a "line rifle" collector.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Carl Gustaf Rolling Block in 10,15x61R Jarmann

Further postings have brought more valuable information; all pictures thanks to Arilar.

* * *

arilar
Posted - 12/17/2006 : 2:33:51 PM
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Arrived today. Can anyone tell me when they were produced, why and how many? Giving you all pics in a couple of days.


arilar
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 4:48:15 PM
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So....a CG Remington in caliber 10,15x61R Jarmann. Why, when and in what number were they produced?







Regards,
ARILAR


Dutchman
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 5:14:06 PM
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Other than the caliber anomaly, I can see several obvious differences to the later 12,7mm rifles.

1- shorter barrel & cleaning rod.
2- receiver profile in barrel area (could be wrong on this).
3- larger pivot pins.
4- hammer profile different than later models.

I'm not sure this isn't just a case of a Jarmann barrel being fitted to a rolling block. At any rate I think its the first 1867 dated Carl Gustaf receiver I've seen.


arilar
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 03:45:02 AM
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Hi Dutchman,
Yes you are right. Its a Jarmann barrel fitted to a rolling block. They are pretty rare. Maybe 100-200 made?? Havent found so much written about them yet. On this one is the 1879 back-sight (restamped). In front you see sight adjustable in side and the typical 1867 ramrod-end. Swivel attached to trigger-guard as on m/1867. All parts matching serialnumber. On triggerguard mark T.A.T. Any suggestions what it means? Buttplate marked also with numbers.
The 10,15 mm barrel was issued 1880 but not descided at that point what rifle to be used on. The Swedish Repeter-rifle Jarmann 10,15 mm was never taken and only close to 1500 made.
I think that the Remington 10,15 was made after 1880 then. Karl-Egil Hanevik says in his wonderful book "Norske militaergevaer etter 1867" that, "...instead was it at first a small number of older Remingtonrifles changed to 10,15 mm caliber" .My translation and it is in the part when the 1883 swedish Jarmann was not choosen 1885. 1889 came the 8 mm remington so I suspect somewhere between 1885-88 is the year?
The barrel is also marked. "JG" is the "Besiktningsrustmästare" in this case Johan Granberg active from ca. 1872 and known to been checking jarmann-rifles in Stockholm 1879. Even more interesting is the mark "JB" belonging to Johan Brandt, "Besiktningsofficer" that started in Carl Gustafs Stad june 1886. That narrows the period to 1886-88?
Any inputs?





Regards,
ARILAR


Dutchman
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 3:53:07 PM
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This is so specialized as to be out of my area of general knowledge but I have a couple thoughts... ok maybe only one thought

I would hesitate to depend upon the initials stamped in the barrel to determine the date of assembly. All those initials indicate are dates of inspection. We do not know if the two go together, inspection and assembly.

I suspect Anders may be the person to contact as he may know an advanced collector who can shed light on this rifle.

My interest is in the receiver itself being a first year production Carl Gustaf. The HVA receivers have their own little differences as well but as with Swedish Mausers my interests lie with Carl Gustaf firearms.

Its a very nice rifle. Looks as though someone deliberately polished off what case hardening color was there on the receiver.... ?? It also looks to have had an abusive owner who could not accurately hit the breechblock pivot pin on the right side of the receiver to remove it.

Dutchman



arilar
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 09:00:25 AM
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Yes, hard to find info. Phoned a couple collectors that are "semi"-advcanced with Remingtons. Some has owned or handled a rifle as this and can describe mine by phone! Now I rather believe maybe 300 were made? Based upon comparing other rifles "just 100 made" or "just 200 made". Maybe or maybe not mine has had case-hardening on receiver. Beside the abuse close to pivot pin the rifle is in very good condition. Belive it was a "trial-rifle" of some kind.
Inspectors marks are interesting. The article "Stämplar på svenska arméns handeldvapen 1770-1870" (marks on Swedish handguns 1770-1870) by Roger Olsson in the book "Meddelande 41-42 Armémuseum 1980-82" is very good regarding marks. According to "1850 regulation on inspection"was the initials to the right by "Besiktningsrustmästaren" when the barrel was approved. The mark, initials to the left by the "Besiktningsofficer" when the total rifle was approved. That is way I have the theory that JB, the officers stamp, indicates production of the rifle 1886-1888.
Well, I will try to get hold on more collectors and really hopes Anders participates in this thread. Nevertheless, always a thrill when not all mysteries is cleared immediately!
Regards,
ARILAR


bonny
Estonia
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 12:31:57 PM
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Your Rolling Block rifle is pretty, congratulations on a nice find
From what I have read, I suppose Remington's Rolling Block rifles were the most successful design as far as single bullet breech loading military rifles are concerned. I understand that over 100 nations adopted this rifle since its introduction.
Could it be said that this design was more popular than the American trap door rifles or the British Henry Martini styled rifles?



Dutchman
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 7:40:12 PM
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Originally posted by bonny

Your Rolling Block rifle is pretty, congratulations on a nice find
From what I have read, I suppose Remington's Rolling Block rifles were the most successful design as far as single bullet breech loading military rifles are concerned. I understand that over 100 nations adopted this rifle since its introduction.
Could it be said that this design was more popular than the American trap door rifles or the British Henry Martini styled rifles?
Remington alone produced over 1,000,000 rifles. Add in the contract rifles built by Spain, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Belgium.....Egypt. I'm real sure there are more. Yes, far out produced the British Martini and the U.S. 1873 Springfield by a long shot.
Dutchman


arilar
Posted - 12/27/2006 : 7:30:15 PM
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New info from two collectors..."försöksmodell" trial-model 1884. Produced approx. 1000 rifles. Does this ring a bell for anybody? Will try to get this info confirmated. Rotta, isnt Jarmann 10,15 popular in Norway? Maybe you have some knowledge on this model? Seems it not that unusual.
Regards,
ARILAR


jaeger justnaes
Norway
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 06:44:21 AM
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Arilar, I've heard of two theories.
1. A trial rifle for testing the 10.15 cartridge prior to the approval of the Jarmann rifle.
2. A "Skolskjutningsgevär" to use the surplus 10.15 ammo after the M96 came along.

In any case your rifle is probably quite rare and in a excellent condition! Congratulations!
I have have a civil Norwegian RB and a tennstempelrifle chambered for that round. Guess it's due to the fact that it was a powerful and precise cartridge (used for competition and hunting) and it was plentiful after the M96 and Krag-Joergensen rifles took over.


arilar
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 3:31:49 PM
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Thanks Jaeger. Your suggestions seems as good as any. Havent got so many actually. So....what bulletmould? Dont wanna use paper-patched bullets though. (Well I have Öyvinds nice book but will wait with that system). Any big difference between RCBS and 4D dies? Brass from Bertram or other source?


rudybolla
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 5:07:03 PM
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I have owned one of these (posted pics here some time ago)and seen two more. I have heard that they were trials rifles. I once saw an M70-style cavalry carbine in 10.15 Jarmann!!! Must have packed a whallop and a half. Was told about a M85 garrison/artillery carbine in same chambering, so I think the Swedes were looking for a way to stave off having to buy all new rifles.


arilar
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 5:08:33 PM
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Originally posted by Dutchman

Other than the caliber anomaly, I can see several obvious differences to the later 12,7mm rifles.

1- shorter barrel & cleaning rod.
2- receiver profile in barrel area (could be wrong on this).
3- larger pivot pins.
4- hammer profile different than later models.

I'm not sure this isn't just a case of a Jarmann barrel being fitted to a rolling block. At any rate I think its the first 1867 dated Carl Gustaf receiver I've seen.
Hi Dutchman,
I am new to this modern rifles (after 25 years of ML-shooting) so I couldn't reply on your observations until today. A friend stopped by and showed his very nice CG Rem. m.64-68. His barrel was 2 centimeters longer (84 cm and míne 82). His cleaningrod was the official m.64-68 and mine is the m.67 where the round tip has been changed to a smaller "caliber" to fit 10,15mm.
Yes, on my 10,15mm is receiver area more round on a longer distance in barrel area compared to m.64-68 (as m.67 is supposed to be). Hammer on mine thinner, other small details on receiver "edges" and hammer differs. Also larger pivot pins on my m.67 (as it should be).



So... your observations was correct in EVERY detail. I am impressed. See also the earlier style of attachment for sling to triggerguard.



I had been told that this model has a fabric-bedding for the barrel in frontstock. This fabric usually collects moisture and therefore makes the barrel very rusty underneath even if the rest of the barrel looks perfect. In my case luckily just minor rust and perfect condition underneath and also inside the barrel. :) :)



Regards,
ARILAR


arilar
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 5:14:25 PM
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Originally posted by rudybolla

I have owned one of these (posted pics here some time ago)and seen two more. I have heard that they were trials rifles. I once saw an M70-style cavalry carbine in 10.15 Jarmann!!! Must have packed a whallop and a half. Was told about a M85 garrison/artillery carbine in same chambering, so I think the Swedes were looking for a way to stave off having to buy all new rifles.
Rudybolla,
Yes, someone mentioned the carbine-version of this 10,15 Rem trial-rifle. I was told the carbine model is extremely rare. Maybe just 100 made!!
Regards, ARILAR


rudybolla
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 5:32:55 PM
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Double Dang!! I knew I should have bought it!


arilar
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 5:41:29 PM
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Originally posted by rudybolla
Double Dang!! I knew I should have bought it!
Rudybolla,
Yes, someone mentioned the carbine-version of this 10,15 Rem trial-rifle. I was told the carbine model is extremely rare. Maybe just 100 made!!

Dont feel sorry! The advanced collector that told me about the carbine 10,15 Rem. also mentioned that this carbine was so odd, unusual or even ugly-looking that even rather experienced collectors often passed on it. You know, the "Bubba-theory-syndrom". Thanks for info about old threads. Just red them with interest.

Regards,
ARILAR


jaeger justnaes
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 12:31:48 PM
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Just to make the mess complete, there was also a "carbine version" of the 10,15 Jarmann, I can't remember the case length but I think it was 54mm.


rudybolla
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 3:29:23 PM
Originally posted by jaeger justnaes

Just to make the mess complete, there was also a "carbine version" of the 10,15 Jarmann, I can't remember the case length but I think it was 54mm.
That would at least "soften the blow"!
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Experimental M 1870 Rolling Block Carbine in 10,15x61R Jarmann

rudybolla
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 7:02:56 PM
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Check out this link! Another experimental Swedish military rolling block in 10.15 Jarmann. Very cool.

http://www.michaeldlong.com/Ko-Bespoke/stockdetails.asp?product=0/106315

Item Number: 106315
Description: Jarman rolling block carbine 1869
Unit Price: ( £ )795.00
This is a rolling block carbine; it has an 18 inch barrel of 10.5 calibre (Jarman centre-fire), overall length 34 inches, it is full stocked with a steel end cap that protects the front sight, good overall condition and in good working order.





















kriggevaer
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 11:30:27 PM
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All right, thanks rudybolla. The Jarmann, both rifles and cartridge, are really interesting. You do have a nose for those fullstocks!



arilar
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 01:58:12 AM
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This 10,15 carbine is a very rare bird. I havent seen it before just heard about it. When they show up sometimes taken for fakes because: "Don't exist in any book", "looks ugly", "haven't been seen before" etc. They have the 1880 issued 10,15 mm barrel and old receivers. Used in try-outs. Hope someone else has more info to share.

Regards,
ARILAR



jorma
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 3:56:12 PM
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Hi gents, I am wondering what happened to sn on the receiver and there are not pics of
rear stock ther supposed be sn stamped on the left side too.
 

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I just acquired one of these rifles.

Carcano pulled together a good archive on older postings. Has anything new been learned? These were Trials Rifles? Does anyone know the approximate number that were produced?
 

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Hi guys!
I have just traded my 12mm
for one of these strange Rollingblocks.
Mine has SN 25XX,
and has got the same number
on every part with numbers on them.
It is in very good condition,
on par with the one pictured here
on this forum.
I was lucky enough to have a friend of
mine send me 40 pieces of brass for it too.
I am looking forward to let here speak.
I just wanted to make you aware of
the SN past 2500.
 

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Thank you very much!
I'll see what i can do about
the pics.
I am busy loading the new
brass i received yesterday,
and i will get back to you
when i have something to report.
I am having trouble getting
the bullets seated,
because i have'nt got the dies
for this caliber yet.
This Bertramcasings is made
with very tight necks.
Too tight, in my opinion.
 

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Thanks for the pics. It's in very nice condition - much nicer than mine, which is S/N 1417.

I can't tell from the pics, but does the hole for the firing pin retaining screw go all the way through the breechblock on your gun?
 

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Thanks for the pics. It's in very nice condition - much nicer than mine, which is S/N 1417.

I can't tell from the pics, but does the hole for the firing pin retaining screw go all the way through the breechblock on your gun?
Hi!
The retainig screw for the firingpin does go all the way through, yes.
The bore is'nt perfect, but it should be good enough to get resonable
accuracy out of it.
The sad thing is that the brass available for this caliber,
seems to be brittle, as they tend to split just above the rim.
I have not had this problem with brass from the same maker,
related to other calibers such as .577-.450 MH and 12,17x44 Norwegian
Remington.
They split lengthwise on the same spot every time.
Shure - i do appreciate the fact that there is any brass
at all available, but the cost goes skyhigh when
so many casings split.
There might be a problem with the specifications.:(
I have noticed differences in messures and dimentions
from one casing to an other, as well as from one lot to an other.
The producer has to go buy the specifications given buy the customers,
and i do understand this can be challanging if the customers are'nt
able to make up their mind.
This is really an oddball caliber,
and it does'nt seem unreasonable that it might be difficult to get it
to fit in all the different chambersizes made a century and a quarter
a go.
I did a trip to the range the other day, and i found out i had more work to
do as far as loaddevelopment is conserned.
It did'nt seem totally hopeless though.
I'll get back to you when i've got more to tell.
Hopefully with pictures on my shootingresults.
Be carefull.
 

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I haven't made any brass up, though I have dies. Can't it be made from 348 Winchester?

I think that your brass woes would be greatly reduced if you'd anneal your brass before first use, and then every 2-3 times it's used. Size it minimally - just enough so that it will chamber freely, and at the same time grip the bullet sufficiently.
 

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Hello.
I did anneal my BB brass before i did
anything else with them.
I 've got brass from two different
batches.
One batch with fat rim,
and one with skinny rim.
The skinny ones will not
chamber, because of
too much material in
the neckportion.
If i put the correct DM
bullet in the case,
they will not chamber.
The other ones i have
the same trouble with,
but this time it is
because of the fat
rims.
This is the most difficult
caliber i have ever tried
to reload.
 

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Hi Qualibra,
I havent started the process of reload yet. Maybe you already is aware of the Norwegian forum "Svartkrutt.net". Several members here (like Dutchman and JK) are members at this Norwegian forums english version. Plenty of the norwegian guys play with Jarmann 10,15 caliber. Maybe you can get good advices on that place. Here is the link.

http://www.svartkrutt.net/board/index.php

Regards,
ARILAR:)
 

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Thank you.
Being a Norwegian blackpowdershooter
myself, i have allready read everything on this
subject written on that forum,
many times over.
I need to work on this project,
in order to get it right.
 

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