DocAV
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 12:31:35 AM
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4 UT== Quarto Ufficio Tecnico == Fourth Technical Office: An Inspection Department in the Republic of Salo' (the RSI, a creation of Hitler's to save Mussolini in Northern Italy--effectively a German controlled Puppet State, from October 1943 to April 1945.
The RE mark may predate the Armistice of 8 Sept. 1943, and the 4UT be after it. One must look at the Barrel markings for manufacturer(Beretta or FNA etc) and the year date of manufacture.
If the 4UT mark is only on the stock, it means just accepted for Service in either the RSI or the occupying German Forces, which took a lot of Gardone District production (Pistols and SMGs, less of Carbines.)
BIG ED
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 06:22:38 AM
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Thanks Doc
The carbine has no maker mark or manut date. it looks sterile
Any thoughts on that?
DocAV
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 6:40:37 PM
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Dear Big ED,
The "RE mark was applied obviously before September 43 (when there was still a "Royal Army". The 4UT was applied sometime in 1944; so whether it was an earlier rifle refurbished by one of the Gardone Plants during the RSI p[eriod and "scrubbed" or earlier makers marks, or a left over "work in Porgress" completed after the Armistice of 9/43, who knows?
The serial number "USxxx" puts it in the PBeretta manufacturing series (?) but which year will need Hobbes' book to clear up the year date.
Another possibility is that the "RE" was added post-April 1945 till Mid-1948, when the Royal Army was reconstituted; in mid-1948, the Italians by referendum ( fraudulently manipulated by an infernal coalition of Christian Democrats and Communists) abolished the Monarchy. In this case, the 4UT mark to the stock could have been aplied sometime in 1944-45, and left there.
Strip the carbine down, and look for a receiver production date under the front ring (" '43 "). Also any "PB" initials on parts like the trigger assembly, bolt, etc.
BIG ED
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 9:38:31 PM
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Doc,
I took it apart. I saw no year of manuf stamped on barrel shank. Just some small proofs. It was heavy with grease in the barrel channel like a japanese type 99 usually is. I don't think its ever been messed with.
Franchi
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 5:29:19 PM
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The 4UT wasn't only used in the RSI period, it was used pre-RSI on various items. A couple of examples in my collection are: Italian bayonet marked GNUTTI 1942 with a (4UT), of course this could have been marked (4UT) at any time but there are Carcanos pre 1943 with (4UT) stock markings with a date.
One example (in my collection) is a M38 Cav. Carb. 6,5 cal. 1941-XIX Beretta Gardone, all matching with a stock cartouche of crown over 4ºUT over 40 all inside an oval. I have other examples, but would have to dig out my data. I can't see how a 1940 date with the (4UT) could be RSI only, it appears the RSI adopted the 4UT but it was in use before the RSI used it.
David Franchi
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 12:31:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 UT== Quarto Ufficio Tecnico == Fourth Technical Office: An Inspection Department in the Republic of Salo' (the RSI, a creation of Hitler's to save Mussolini in Northern Italy--effectively a German controlled Puppet State, from October 1943 to April 1945.
The RE mark may predate the Armistice of 8 Sept. 1943, and the 4UT be after it. One must look at the Barrel markings for manufacturer(Beretta or FNA etc) and the year date of manufacture.
If the 4UT mark is only on the stock, it means just accepted for Service in either the RSI or the occupying German Forces, which took a lot of Gardone District production (Pistols and SMGs, less of Carbines.)
BIG ED
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 06:22:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Doc
The carbine has no maker mark or manut date. it looks sterile
Any thoughts on that?
DocAV
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 6:40:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Big ED,
The "RE mark was applied obviously before September 43 (when there was still a "Royal Army". The 4UT was applied sometime in 1944; so whether it was an earlier rifle refurbished by one of the Gardone Plants during the RSI p[eriod and "scrubbed" or earlier makers marks, or a left over "work in Porgress" completed after the Armistice of 9/43, who knows?
The serial number "USxxx" puts it in the PBeretta manufacturing series (?) but which year will need Hobbes' book to clear up the year date.
Another possibility is that the "RE" was added post-April 1945 till Mid-1948, when the Royal Army was reconstituted; in mid-1948, the Italians by referendum ( fraudulently manipulated by an infernal coalition of Christian Democrats and Communists) abolished the Monarchy. In this case, the 4UT mark to the stock could have been aplied sometime in 1944-45, and left there.
Strip the carbine down, and look for a receiver production date under the front ring (" '43 "). Also any "PB" initials on parts like the trigger assembly, bolt, etc.
BIG ED
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 9:38:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doc,
I took it apart. I saw no year of manuf stamped on barrel shank. Just some small proofs. It was heavy with grease in the barrel channel like a japanese type 99 usually is. I don't think its ever been messed with.
Franchi
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 5:29:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 4UT wasn't only used in the RSI period, it was used pre-RSI on various items. A couple of examples in my collection are: Italian bayonet marked GNUTTI 1942 with a (4UT), of course this could have been marked (4UT) at any time but there are Carcanos pre 1943 with (4UT) stock markings with a date.
One example (in my collection) is a M38 Cav. Carb. 6,5 cal. 1941-XIX Beretta Gardone, all matching with a stock cartouche of crown over 4ºUT over 40 all inside an oval. I have other examples, but would have to dig out my data. I can't see how a 1940 date with the (4UT) could be RSI only, it appears the RSI adopted the 4UT but it was in use before the RSI used it.
David Franchi
